Ariana deVries

Welcome to the podcast, everybody. I'm your host, Ariana, and I'm thrilled to chat today with my dear friend and sister-in-law, Alicia deVries. Leesh, thank you for being here with me today.

Alicia deVries

I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me be a part of this.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. So this is your first time being with us and I'm thrilled because you are going to be a part of Active Listening for the foreseeable future. You are helping with behind the scenes stuff, but we may even hear your voice a little bit more often, joining in to help with hosting episodes and offering questions for guests that we have on. So I am so excited to have you on board. It's going to be really great. But for this one, this episode is to get people to see who you are and hear who you are. I guess you can't see with a podcast, but get a little glimpse into your story and who you are, and what's brought you to the place that you're at now. So I'm really excited to hear what you have to say. I guess we can just start with a little bit of random facts about us. I mean we married brothers, obviously. We share the same last name now. It's a little bit confusing, because our names also kind of look the same.

Alicia deVries

Yes, they do.

Ariana deVries

Ariana and Alicia, which is fun. We both enjoy playing video games. We have that in common. You have three kids, who are all very sweet. Twin girls.

Alicia deVries

Twins, yes.

Ariana deVries

What else? What else can you share with us about yourself?

Alicia deVries

Well, yeah, I'm so excited to be a part of this and to be here with you and join in just having conversations together. We do that a lot anyway, so it's great to be a part of this and to share conversations with other people.

Ariana deVries

Yes, that is something that I should mention. We have conversations about everything.

Alicia deVries

We really do.

Ariana deVries

All the time, like I don't know if there's anybody else that I talk to more than Alicia, about all of life stuff. So this is great.

Alicia deVries

It's fun to actually have these conversations and let other people be a part of them by listening and maybe open that up for having conversations with other people about topics we just care so much about.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. So it's really, really awesome. Let us start at the beginning of your story. Tell us a little bit about your childhood - what life was like growing up for you. I mean, you were homeschooled, just like I was. We both grew up in the same church. We have a lot of the same kinds of history, but not quite. So tell me a little bit about how you started out in the world and how that affected your views of life.

Alicia deVries

Yeah, so I'm the oldest of five kids. And as you stated, we were a Christian homeschool family. I was homeschooled until high school where I attended a Christian High School. We always lived in the country and didn't have too many neighbors close by. So we felt pretty sheltered as kids. But also, I think it formed a great close knit family. We're all pretty close as siblings. We started attending the church where we met when I was seven. So that church actually became a huge part of my life. I went to high school there and youth group and young adults group and also served there. I served there in lots of different ministries, different areas, and all the conferences and events and young adults group and children's ministry. I was pretty involved there. Yeah, growing up I always felt like I just wanted to like follow the rules around church, I guess, or what it was like to be a young woman. You attend church. You read your Bible. You pray. You serve wherever you can. You attend all the services. You're involved in all the groups and all that stuff.

Ariana deVries

Yes, I know this all too well.

Alicia deVries

Yeah. So during my teens and early 20s, I always felt like what I should do was just wait around to get married. I feel like that was part of what I had internalized, whether I heard it directly or not, was to get married. I did have a job at the time that I enjoyed. But I always felt like it was temporary because my goal was to get married, have kids, be a stay at home mom, and have that be a big part of my life. And no one really necessarily discouraged me from pursuing post secondary education or in pursuing a job or a career for myself, but I don't feel like it was also ever like encouraged maybe? Or maybe at the back of my mind, I felt like, "well, I can't really do that, because what I feel like I'm supposed to do is get married and have kids." And that again was just demonstrated in every area, everywhere we looked, right?

Ariana deVries

Yeah, totally.

Alicia deVries

It was everywhere within church, in family life, people we were close to. That's just what we saw a lot of. So that's what I did.

Ariana deVries

Yes, that's what you did, got married and had kids.

Alicia deVries

Yes, that's literally what I did.

Ariana deVries

Same.

Alicia deVries

Aha yeah. So as you said, I have twin girls who are three and a half and a little boy who just turned one. And so that's a big part of my life right now.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, man that sounds so familiar. I have very similar origins and I understand completely where you are coming from. Yeah. I know, as I've gotten to know you more over the last couple of years, as we've become sisters, it's been really cool to see you blossom and grow into someone who sees the world in a different way than you once did, to see your perspectives change and to see you learn and take in information about the world in a way that you didn't before. Seeing the progression of how you've come from who you said that you were before, and the experiences that you had to who you are now, it's been really exciting to see and be a part of that journey with you.

I know a lot of people know my story, with listening to earlier episodes of the podcast. Maybe you haven't, maybe you need to go back and listen to them. But a large part of my story has been shared. And a lot of my views have changed in regards to what I think about life and the world. And I know that you are on not the same trajectory, but you have also been on a journey and I've been very honored to be a part of that with you. But yours is unique to you. And so I want you to share a little bit more about what that journey has looked like for you over the past couple of years, and the kinds of things that you have been questioning or the things that you have really grabbed on to and been like, yeah, that's something that hits a passion button for me. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Alicia deVries

Yeah, well, going back a bit, growing up in a Christian home, being homeschooled, attending Christian high school, all my social life was at church. Like everything was wrapped around that. And I was pretty surrounded by a lot of people who believed a lot of the same things that I did. I mean, within church, you do have people who believe different things, but I wasn't really closely connected with people or I didn't pay too much attention to it if people believed slightly different things. Until about, I want to say like six years ago, when I started dating David, my husband. I was introduced to his family who believed differing things than I did. Not like huge things. We believe a lot of the same things, but there were just like some things that were different. And it was actually a little intimidating at first because I mean, you're pretty surrounded by people who believe the same things. And then you feel like you're slightly challenged in some things.

Ariana deVries

Well when you're used to growing up and seeing life a certain way, and not being used to asking questions, and then to suddenly join a family that that is their MO is to question everything.

Alicia deVries

Yes, always.

Ariana deVries

You don't take anything at face value. That's a little bit jarring. For sure.

Alicia deVries

It is and yeah, just to be given the opportunity to ask questions and to wonder about different things, like I've never really done that. I was just always like, this is just how it is. I do remember a pretty defining moment a few years back that I feel like for me, really changed things - David's family was into Andrew Farley at the time. And he had some views on tithing that his family talked about that I just had not really been exposed to before. So I went and watched the video where Andrew Farley talked about it. And actually, I'll be honest, I started watching it and I actually had to pause it and come back to it later because it seemed so far fetched, and so different from what I grew up believing that I just needed a bit of time to process it. So I did that and came back. And what he talks about is that tithing is under the law and that because we are in Christ we're no longer under the law. So tithing is not a part of what we need to do. And I had just never been exposed to that way of thinking before. Tithing was just always our way of life - you always gave 10%. Even if you're struggling, well you put your faith in God and you believe by giving your 10%. And that was just a part of what you did.

So to be close to a family that believed differing things about something that I found to be so foundational, was pretty incredible. It actually was really amazing for me to just start to wonder. And I had to ask myself, do I really believe that I have all the answers for everything? Or can maybe some things that I've always thought to be true, maybe they aren't true.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Alicia deVries

And for some people, that might actually be a pretty scary spot to be in, but I actually found it really exciting. Because I had begun to find church and a lot of the messages to be about the same things over and over. I didn't find there was like, a lot of new things presented or new ideas, it just was a lot of the same things. Which a lot of people are into, and that's great.

Ariana deVries

And that's safe for people, and that's totally ok.

Alicia deVries

It totally is. But for me to be in this position, I was actually so excited.

Ariana deVries

Same.

Alicia deVries

I was because for David and I, we actually kind of started in this together. We were both at a place of wanting to make our faith our own and wanting to ask questions. And being able to do that together was actually really special and really fun to do. And we would just talk about all the things. We would talk about the sermons we heard, and talk about the different aspects of it. And just like wonder, is this what we think? Or can there be a different way of thinking about it? And I actually really enjoyed that.

And even now, thinking through the ways that we read the Bible. I feel like a lot of times we cherry pick verses to apply to our lives, and we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to say. And a lot of people do that. And for me, even just realizing that there's so much more to the Bible. Like the context of even the New Testament letters - who they are written to, what's going on during that time period that they're written in. There's so much more behind the scenes that help give understanding for what the verses actually mean, as opposed to taking the verses for what they are and saying that they apply to my situation right now. I'm just now realizing, that it just seems a bit far fetched.

And even realizing how much language and Bible translation plays into a lot of this and actually being so fascinated by that. I'd love to do another, maybe episode on that whole thing, because there's so much involved in that. But just how fascinating is that? That the language and the personal bias people have when translating influences what the Bible says. A lot of the things that people believe is foundational is maybe not as accurate as they believe it to be.

Ariana deVries

I don't know about you, but for me, the world just like exploded with the amount of possibility that there was, and just the quantity of things that there was to know about. And to realize that my faith or what I believed the Bible, whatever it was, there was so much more than just a book, or there was so much more to life than just one aspect of Christianity or faith. And that there's so much that encompasses spirituality, and there's so much more that encompassed just the ordinary of life. And the extraordinary. But to put it all into one small package, it felt very small, all of a sudden, when I realized that there is so much that can make life beautiful. And I don't know about you, but just like you said earlier, like the wonder that there was to life and the things that there could be to learn.

Alicia deVries

And especially from other people.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Alicia deVries

I think that was a big thing for me is you grow up believing that everyone else is the 'other', that they're not necessarily to be trusted. They don't have truth.

Ariana deVries

Somehow not as good as us.

Alicia deVries

Yeah, and you can't be loving if you don't have Jesus.

Ariana deVries

That's a big one.

Alicia deVries

Yeah, but then you meet other people who are fantastic people and who really do love, and who really do care for other people, and you just see that. And I feel like I've also just been learning so much from other people who I feel like I never would have given them the opportunity to do that if I just held on to a lot of these beliefs. Because, again, you don't trust other people.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. I did feel like my love exploded to encompass a lot more people than it did before, because I chose to understand people and because I chose to put myself in their shoes, instead of, like you said, seeing them as the 'other,' seeing them as different than me. As someone I need to save.

Alicia deVries

Yeah! When you take that away, I feel like then you can actually truly love other people.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Alicia deVries

Because you're not doing it with a motive to change them. Which is not actually loving. It isn't loving, because then you're not hearing what other people are saying they need or that they want or anything, because you have in your mind what they need.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. And that's the very thing that we are hoping to do with the Active Listening podcast is to listen to people so that we know how to love them well, right. Instead of listening to myself, so that I can do what I think is best for other people. Which we're human, we still fall into that for sure. I'm not saying that we're perfect now because we've suddenly changed our views on things a little bit/a lot.

Alicia deVries

Oh, no, there's still lots to learn. That's the thing is like, yeah, never ending learning.

Ariana deVries

And I want to learn more. I don't know about you.

Alicia deVries

I do too. I have actually loved the past few years. I feel like I've just been absorbing and learning so much. Like we send each other articles all the time and actually listen to so many podcasts. I feel like that's actually been a new hobby of mine is just listening to what other people think about certain things - involving some religion stuff and other things. And it just is so fascinating to me hearing different people's perspectives, and just realizing that there is no one way to do life.

Ariana deVries

No. I mean, if we're all different people how can there possibly be one way to do life really well?

Alicia deVries

Yeah, there can't be! It just doesn't make sense. Yeah, so it's just been so fun, actually.

Ariana deVries

And it's been in the last couple years, too, that I've started to discover things more like the Enneagram, which has been such a revelation and life changing in so many ways. And just understanding myself better, understanding family better, understanding friends better, knowing what makes people tick at the very deepest part of who they are.

Sidenote, we are both type nines.

Alicia deVries

Yes, we are.

Ariana deVries

So we are very much alike. Which has been fun to figure out, and to learn more about that. In the future, we are hoping to do a season on the Enneagram, so you can learn more about that if you don't know about the Enneagram. But the Enneagram is awesome.

Just to go back, that is something that would have been deemed as strange to me before. I don't know what your thoughts would have been on other, not religions, but like, things that are somewhat out there.

Alicia deVries

Yeah. Probably would have been not as encouraged. Just that, again, the Bible is truth. And..

Ariana deVries

...there's nothing in the Bible about the Enneagram.

Alicia deVries

No. So then why do you need it?

Ariana deVries

But it's the same with Eastern mysticism, or yoga, and stuff like that.

Alicia deVries

Yeah, that's a big one too.

Ariana deVries

My mind just was like, "Why was this ever taught to us as being wrong?" Because it doesn't line up with a specific way of thinking and believing. So therefore... But those are the type of things that help bring life to people in a way that brings more fullness to the picture and can help support spirituality in other ways.

Doesn't have to be the be all end all. But that's just another one of those ways where there's so much more to it.

Alicia deVries

Yeah, there is. It just has been fascinating again, to learn about more than just the Bible, to learn what other people enjoy.

Ariana deVries

And there's so much good in the world.

Alicia deVries

There is, there really is!

Ariana deVries

There's a whole lot of crap.

Alicia deVries

There is that too!

Ariana deVries

But choosing to see the good has been really wonderful. And choosing to see all sides of people. Yeah.

Alicia deVries

Yeah, that has been great.

Ariana deVries

What has been one of your big things? What has been one of the most defining things that you're like, "This has to change. This is something that I don't want to hold as true anymore"?

I'm throwing this at you. I want you to just say something. So you're very passionate about breaking down a lot of misconceptions, and harmful beliefs associated with purity culture, and care very deeply about breaking down patriarchal ways of thinking, and this is one of like, your hot buttons. These are one of the things that if anybody brings up anything about this, you will for sure get Leesh angry. So tell us a little bit about what sparked this and how you are actively working to change ways of thinking around this and for yourself and for others.

Alicia deVries

Yeah, there is a lot to unpack here. And I have so many thoughts on all of this. And we will definitely do more episodes later, because I will not be able to cover all of this at all right here.

Ariana deVries

We will have professionals on to talk about this as well.

Alicia deVries

Yes, which I am so thrilled about.

Ariana deVries

But continue on.

Alicia deVries

Yes. So this is one of the big things that I have seen, that has been so damaging to a lot of people and is actually very toxic to so many people. So purity culture is the idea and belief that your identity and who you are, especially as a woman, is tied to your body and what you do or don't do with your body and the idea that you need to be pure and save yourself for marriage. And again, there's a lot to unpack here. But this shows up in like the modest is hottest topic, of telling young girls, starting very young, that they need to cover up - that their skirts need to be longer, that their tops need to be higher, cover more of their body. And to do this all so that they don't lead the boys astray.

I remember being told that. And if anyone has been to a youth group or schools where they have dress codes, and those are enforced - like lengths of skirts and everything. And if you ever went on a trip in high school - the girls are taken aside into a room and told specifically all the things that they have to have covered up while they're out and about having a fun time. So you have to be concerned about that. You're going swimming and you have to be concerned about wearing a t-shirt to cover up. Again, this just projects onto young women that your body is bad.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Alicia deVries

That there's something wrong with your body. And that boys are worth protecting more, that their minds are worth protecting more than you. Because in schools, so a girl has a skirt that is slightly too short. Well, she is sent home. So you are telling her that the boys' education is more important, that he should not be distracted while learning. But you, as the girl, should be sent home and your education is not even there, because you're not even at school!

Ariana deVries

Right, yeah.

Alicia deVries

I think that's the most ridiculous thing. I think it is so terrible and just so extremely damaging for young girls to grow up processing all of this, and all the things that they have to think about when they leave the house. I remember having to ask my dad about some of my outfits, and having to get his approval before I left the house. Everything is just so sexualized for young girls, specifically. Like it's just so much sexual objectification.

Ariana deVries

And it's such a weird mix because everything is sexualized but sex is not talked about.

Alicia deVries

Yeah, right!

Ariana deVries

There's no context for why this is actually good or bad. It's just all bad.

Alicia deVries

Yeah. Which is also just so ridiculous I think. I feel so sad actually just thinking about it all and hearing stories too from people who find it hard to love themselves and their body, because all their life they're being told that some part of them is wrong for just even developing normally. Even as young adults, you're still told, "You need to cover that up." Mmmm you should cover that up. That's too revealing. Like, again, how are you supposed to love yourself and your body when you're being just constantly told that it's wrong?

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Alicia deVries

Another thing that we do is we teach girls specifically that they must remain pure and save themselves for marriage. So again, yeah, a lot to unpack here. But essentially not have sex before marriage, or you're worthless, and you have nothing to offer. And I know this is talked about because I was a part of teaching it. In children's ministry, I helped lead a group of about 30 girls, grades five to eight. And one of the lessons that we were talking about was on purity. And there is an object lesson, there's a few different object lessons that help explain this. But the object lesson I used, that I remember being taught too, is that you are like a piece of tape. So you tape it onto one person, it sticks pretty well - you're dating, but then you take it off, because you move on to the next guy. So you tape it on to him, well then you have to remove it and a little bit of you is left behind. And then you tape it to the next person and the next and the next. And then when you find someone you want to marry? Well, there's a lot of stuff stuck to your tape, and you don't stick as well. And again, you have less to offer. And I think it's such terrible thinking to associate your worth to something you do or don't do. You are worthy. Despite anything that that you do, or you don't do - that's not connected.

And the other thing that I never thought about, even when teaching this is the amount of people that something has happened to them, that is totally out of their control, like sexual abuse happens. And now this whole time young girls are taught this, they are being told that they, right now, are worthless, that they have nothing to offer. And they never will; they will never be pure. They have nothing because of something that was completely out of their control. So they're just bombarded with this message. And they go through life thinking way less of themselves because of that.

And to anyone who is listening who was a part of that class, or has ever heard anything like this before, I am so so sorry. That is totally not true. You are worthy of love just by being you. Your worth is not attached to anything that your body looks like or that it has experienced or anything. You are worthy of love. And I am so sorry for how damaging this is for people to hear and just how toxic it is.

It makes me so mad. These are people's lives we're talking about. These are impressionable young kids that we're talking to and putting this on them. And even going back to the what you're wearing and stuff, you're putting all the pressure on young girls to help control the boys, as opposed to talking to the boys and helping them to understand how to not sexually objectify girls. Like the pressure in all of this is put on girls and women.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, totally.

Alicia deVries

And it's just all based around shame and guilt.

Ariana deVries

That's a big one.

Alicia deVries

Again, shame for how your body is naturally developed. Shame if something has happened to you. Shame because you have wanted to do something. Just like so much shame and guilt because of all of this. And like, that's hard to get rid of. That stays with you.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, totally. I just think too that people... well you were one of the people who taught these classes and just how hard you tried to do the right thing. And you have the best interests at heart for these girls. But at the same time, you were also speaking out of your experience and your understanding of life. And yeah.

It's so hard to have a full picture when you're stuck in a specific way of thinking and believing and the people who have taught you are in that same cycle of thinking and believing, and there is no space for anything else. There's no space for the 'what if's?' of life or the 'how do we be?' How do we practice this grace that we teach?

Alicia deVries

Yeah. Because that's the thing, we talk about grace, and we offer grace for everything except sexual anything. If you mess up there, well you're screwed up forever. And you now have nothing to offer to someone else. Which also is another bogus thing - like why do you have to give something of yourself? You experience it, too. It's for you, as well.

Ariana deVries

I was listening to another podcast the other day, and they were talking about how the goal for a lot of evangelical Christians for marriage is well, that's it - it's marriage. And then within marriage, it's don't get divorced. So you have to do whatever is deemed as, right - quote, unquote - in order to just not get divorced. And that's not always the healthiest thing. And then there's people who have this baggage of their history of feeling that shame, right, of feeling like, well, I guess I didn't do the right thing. So then how do I now have a healthy marriage with all this stuff that I supposedly have done wrong? That's hard to work through, especially if you think that you are damaged goods now.

Or, if you have the experience, like you and I did, that we didn't date other people. We married the first person that we dated. But we didn't actually have many experiences beyond that. And so we, we did learn alongside our husbands about all of it - about the sexuality and learning what it's like to be in a relationship with someone of the other sex and all of that, and just learning about our bodies and learning all of that. We learned it from scratch when we got married, it was from zero to 100. It's shocking.

Alicia deVries

Yeah, it is! And that's another thing, because again, the goal is for people to save themselves or to have their virginity when they get married. So no one talks about sex at all. There's no sexual education at all. But then somehow, on your wedding night, you're supposed to flip that switch and somehow know everything, and have it figured out. And, like, for me, specifically, in all this, when David and I were engaged, I feel like I was in a constant state of feeling guilty for something. And David and I talked about it all the time - we just felt like we were doing the wrong thing, even though we weren't doing anything wrong. And we even brought it up with our marriage counselors - we feel like, I don't know, we shouldn't be doing this or feeling this. And they told us no, you should. That's a normal and natural part of relationships.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Alicia deVries

If you weren't feeling any of those, like sexual desires or feelings, I would be concerned. And I was like, no one has ever told me that. You were never taught that, like, at some point you do have to feel those feelings. It's just we're taught to always be shutting it down, making sure your thoughts are pure, making sure you're following all the rules. Again, going through all of our engagement, I just felt like, we were doing something wrong, even though we weren't. Then you get married, and now everything's totally great. Everything's acceptable. And you just have to somehow flip the switch.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. And I know that people have so many different experiences with this. Like, all across the board, people have had so many good and bad experiences. And it's not to say that ours is perfect or that we have this figured out or anything like that. But just to see, okay, that's how it worked for us and it's not gonna work like this for everybody.

Alicia deVries

And that's the thing is, even just having an understanding that people are different, that people experience things differently, they grow up differently, that people are unique - to say that this one way of doing things should apply to everyone just doesn't make sense. It just can't. Not in a healthy way it can't. And people are trying to apply this to everyone, in their situations. But this way of doing things and thinking just is not healthy for people.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Oh, man, this topic is just so big.

Alicia deVries

It really is. It could go on.

Ariana deVries

We could talk for so long about this. But we will also be having other guests on this who have the knowledge and the facts about this too, to really share a lot more about this. But I really wanted to hear your thoughts about this, because this is really what you care about. And this is a huge passion point for you. And this is something that you are trying really hard to communicate effectively with your peers and your family and your daughters especially. This is what you want to change with how you parent your kids.

Alicia deVries

It is, because again, things have to change. This way of thinking is not healthy and I want my daughters to grow up thinking differently about themselves, and my son too!

Ariana deVries

Yeah, because it's not about just girls.

Alicia deVries

It's not, even though a lot of the focus is on them. But all of this is not healthy for men either. At all. Like it's not healthy for anyone.

Ariana deVries

In communication, both ways, with everybody across the spectrum, the conversations need to change.

Alicia deVries

Yeah, they really do. Because yeah, we want our kids to grow up thinking differently about all this than we did. And we're a part of helping make that change.

Ariana deVries

We're not saying we're gonna get it right.

Alicia deVries

No, not at all!

Ariana deVries

Not by any stretch of imagination. I'm sure they're gonna have to unlearn things, just like we did. But I want to encourage them to be able to do that. And I'm sure that's what you want for your family too, is teach them to question. Yeah, and teach them to not just accept everything for what it seems. Not to be distrusting, but...

Alicia deVries

...To be able to think for themselves and to, to see what's going on and to be able to ask the question, so that they have a better understanding and can go forward with what they feel is best for them.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. And to hold things with an open hand. To be like, this is what I have thought and these are other ways of thinking. What can I take from these and bring a part of who I am and into my life? And that's what we're learning. I know that's what I'm learning. From my conversations with you, I know that's what you're working through. How do we do this? How do we do this well? That's what I'm really excited about, to have you on board in this conversation. But with all these conversations, how do we love others well?

I know that several years ago, your dad suddenly passed away. And it was a huge shock for everybody, but especially you and your family. And I'm just wondering if you would be comfortable sharing a little bit about what that experience was like and how that has ended up shaping who you are, and how much you wish you could share some of this with your dad.

Alicia deVries

Yeah, so he passed away about four years ago now. It was very sudden, no one was expecting anything like this at all. He passed away in his sleep. And what I've just learned since then, is that bad stuff happens. Terrible stuff. It just happens. And I don't have to have an answer for it. Or I don't have to try and figure out why. Sometimes life just sucks. It really does.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Alicia deVries

So David and I had just gotten married the year before - almost a year exactly from then.

Ariana deVries

Were you pregnant at this time?

Alicia deVries

I was. He passed away three months before the girls came. Yeah. And so well, that's another thing. He was so excited to be a grandpa.

Ariana deVries

He was.

Alicia deVries

He was so thrilled like extremely, and he told everyone. He told anyone he could talk to. He was always telling people at church and even at work. Everyone. He was just so excited.

So that's one of the things that I think I miss the most is just being able to see him be a grandpa. These would have been his first grandkids. And just missing the fact that my kids will grow up not knowing him and having him be a part of their life is really hard. I do think about that. And we do talk about him with the kids. But again, it's hard with little kids to just explain this sort of thing. And yeah, that's a huge thing that I really, I really do miss.

I also miss the opportunity to discuss, like a lot of this, the new things that I'm thinking and relearning and stuff with him because he really loved chatting with people. That was something he loved. He loved people, and he loved having conversations with people. That was a big thing. He would always just be reaching out to people and seeing people who maybe weren't fitting in. Even at church, he was always finding people who looked like they might not have too many connections, and he would invite them over for lunch. Like that was a regular thing. He went out for coffee with a bunch of people, different people to just be a listening ear for them. And even over the course of the weeks after him passing, we heard from so many people who shared how he reached out to them on a regular basis.

He drove truck for a living. And so he had a lot of time on his hands. And I didn't realize it until after, but he would call people all the time. He chatted with so many different people, some people that he hadn't been in contact with in a long time that he just knew years previous. But he was just super into talking to people. He also listened to a lot of messages and stuff while he was trucking and he would send some of those our way - just things that he found so interesting. And that's one thing I really do miss is just having an opportunity to talk about a lot of the things that I've been relearning and unlearning. I would have loved the opportunity to talk to him. And I know we wouldn't have probably came to the same conclusions about some of this stuff, but that's fine. I really do miss having the opportunity to do so.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, and he was the type of person who cared so deeply about people and their stories. And I do feel like that has been passed on to you. And that is now a part of who you are. And I always was amazed at the number of people that you were connected with, and the number of people that your family was connected with, and the reach that you had, and the lives that you affected.

His story is living on in you. And now you're a part of this opportunity to be a part of people's stories in this way too, and affecting people's lives and helping to share the space for conversations. So it's, in a way, it's like his legacy is living on in you with being able to sit down with people and listen to their stories and to hold that very gently, to hold people's hearts gently by being receptive to people from all walks of life, from all different backgrounds, and from people of different colour and culture. You are learning so much from so many different people. I think your dad would be incredibly proud of who you are now.

I mean, I'm incredibly proud of you. I'm your sister, but I can only imagine how he would feel and I do hope that those who are in your life now are also proud of the strides that you have taken to become who you are now and to work to change the ways that you do see things so that you can include a lot more people into your circle, into your worldview now so that people don't get left on the margins.

Alicia deVries

Yeah. That is really good. And I feel like he really would be proud. He really did instill in us as kids to invite other people into our lives, to bring other people along on our journey and to hear from a wide variety of people, and that you don't need to hear from just a small group of people, but you can learn from so many others. And we definitely saw that through him. So yeah, that's really special.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Well we will be bringing this conversation to a close very shortly. But thank you so much for what you've shared.

So for other people who may be starting on a journey of questioning, regardless of what the foundation background is that they're coming from, do you have a small piece of advice that you would offer someone who is dismantling past beliefs, or is searching for something else?

Alicia deVries

Yeah, I would say, to not be afraid of changing your beliefs when presented with new information. I know that's out there as a saying, but it really is true. Like, we are presented with so many different things as we grow and learn over our life and to just be open to that and be open to learning from other people. And don't assume that you have all the answers. Learning can be scary, but it can also be really exciting. Embrace that. And, again, you don't have to have it all figured out, either. I sure don't.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, who does?

Alicia deVries

Yeah, really! But I feel like before, I thought I did. I thought I did have all the answers or knew where to find all the answers. You won't have it all figured out, and that is okay. That's a fine place to be.

Ariana deVries

The world is a lot less black and white and a lot more full of colour to me now.

Alicia deVries

Oh totally. And like there's so many people to learn from, and just be open to that.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Alicia deVries

Another thing that you actually told me to do was to take notes, and to write things down. And that has actually been so helpful for me because just in learning, or if I have new thoughts, I just write them down. Or if I'm listening to a podcast and something is just inspiring for me, I write it down. I also write down things that I feel extremely frustrated about, or I write down my rants.

Ariana deVries

Oh yes, us Type Nines are good at ranting inside.

Alicia deVries

Yes, very, very good.

Ariana deVries

And outside too, let's be real. We can be angry.

Alicia deVries

For real. But I feel like for me being at home and parenting my kids well, I can't have all these things in my head. And so it has actually been so helpful to just write my thoughts down so that they are not taking up space in my head. So that I can be present with my kids and not feel like I'm angry about something that is not related to them, but it's something totally different that I feel is wrong with the world in some regard. But now I can write it down and I can come back to it; maybe have a conversation with someone about it just to talk about this sort of thing. But things don't have to take up space in your brain, in your head. You can write them down. And that has actually been so helpful.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Well, I think that's one way that it can help make the whole experience feel less overwhelming, right? Because as you are slowly starting to introduce all these different ways of thinking and just everything is new. You're learning new things about everything.

Alicia deVries

Yeah, really. It's overwhelming.

Ariana deVries

The world is a really big place and there's so much to know. We can't know it all. So to be able to compartmentalize a little bit is helpful.

Alicia deVries

Yeah, it really is.

Ariana deVries

For sure. Alright, so the final question is what brings you joy, and what gives you hope for the future?

Alicia deVries

What brings me joy, I think is having great conversations with friends. And I really, really love that. I always come away feeling incredibly energized. And over COVID it has not been helpful because that has not been able to happen as much but just finding ways to make that happen. And to just have those great conversations with you, and there's a few other of my friends that I get together with. It just helps me not feel so alone in all of this thinking. I really love engaging in conversations with people.

What gives me hope is seeing how far I've come in my ways of thinking, and realizing that there's hope for other people to be able to think differently too. I don't say that in a way to be on a mission to try and change other people's minds at all. But I just say that because it has been really helpful for me to be open to learning and growing. And to see, again, how far I have come in all this thinking, because I feel like I really was deep in a lot of different systems of belief that I don't feel like I am a part of anymore.

Ariana deVries

And in as much as it may be frustrating to see people still stuck in those ways of thinking, you still have grace for them. Because you were once there.

Alicia deVries

Totally, totally! Yeah, I get it. I understand and not knowing is a scary thing.

Ariana deVries

Yep.

Alicia deVries

But we have great people around us who we can lean on and chat with about all the stuff and I do hope other people can as well.

Ariana deVries

Being able to do it within community is a very wonderful and special gift.

Alicia deVries

It really is. It is so special to be a part of a community, to chat with people. I do hope people can have the chance to just have conversations that maybe they wouldn't have thought of before. And again, not to say that you'll change your mind about stuff or that you should. But just being open to hearing what other people have to say is important.

Ariana deVries

And if there is anybody who doesn't know who to talk to about this, please feel free to reach out to us because we would be more than happy to be a part of that journey with you. Our email will be in the show notes for you to reach out if you are looking for a community of people to talk to you about whatever it may be, whatever journey you may be on. But we would love to listen, to actively listen, to love our active listening community.

So thank you, Leesh, for being a part of this with me today. I'm so proud of you for doing this and for joining me on this adventure of podcasting and of learning and growing and choosing to be courageous and do hard things like this. Thank you.

Alicia deVries

Thanks so much for having me on. I really do look forward to many more conversations with you about lots of different things. So thanks again.