Season 1 / Bad Vibes: Losing the Silence - with Matthew Mikkelsen

In this episode, Ariana talks with Matthew Mikkelsen about the ways in which modernization is affecting our world and us as individuals; causing a noise pollution crisis. There are few places on Earth which are untouched by manmade sounds for extended periods of time.


Matt is a sound recordist, audio engineer, and documentary filmmaker. He is the co-founder of Spruce Tone Films, serves as the Executive Director of Wilderness Quiet Parks, and is on the board for One Square Inch, which works to protect Olympic National Park from noise pollution. He loves the outdoors and hopes to inspire others to care for the earth; preserving natural soundscapes.


If you have any questions or comments regarding this episode, please don't hesitate to contact us at activelistening.life@gmail.com OR you can find us on Instagram and Twitter.

Ariana deVries

Welcome to the podcast everybody. I am your host, Ariana, and I have the great pleasure today of interviewing Matthew Mikkelsen. Welcome, Matt.

Matt Mikkelsen

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. So for those who don't know who you are, you are many things and I will read the list. You are a sound recordist, audio engineer and documentary filmmaker, you are the Co-Founder of Spruce Tone Films, and serve as the Executive Director of Wilderness Quiet Parks and are on the board for One Square Inch, which serves to protect Olympic National Park from noise pollution. [That's what we're gonna be talking about today is noise pollution and how that is affecting our world.] You also own your own audio company, is that right?

Matt Mikkelsen

I do. And when you list all these things out, I'm like, wow, how did I commit to all of these things?

Ariana deVries

I was gonna say, "Wow, you were a busy guy. And yet, you find the time to sit and be quiet." That's really great.

Matt Mikkelsen

I feel very, very lucky.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. So you currently live in Jackson, Wyoming with your partner, right?

Matt Mikkelsen

Yes, I do.

Ariana deVries

Great. So let's just jump right in. What first got you interested in sound and sound engineering and filmmaking?

Matt Mikkelsen

I think I've always had a love of sound stemming from music. Even from the time I was like, really young, I just loved banging on stuff. And, you know, like, taught myself to play guitar at a pretty young age and quickly thought, as you know, a pre teenager, oh, I want to be a musician. Like, that's what I want to do with my life. And went down that road for quite a number of years into my teenage years and was a drummer and a guitar player and wrote songs and worked at a music store. And I think at some point, maybe when I was around 18, or 19...17, I don't know, I realized that making a living as a musician is a really tough life. Yeah. And you have to be really good. Like, I think I kind of realized, like, I'm a good musician, but I'm not that good. You know, I just didn't have maybe the drive or I don't know, I decided okay, so like, what else would I enjoy doing kind of related to music? And that's when I started getting into producing and recording. Yeah, like, I loved setting up microphones and pressing the big red button and recording and bringing in my friends bands and setting up a bunch of microphones. And it's like, Okay, well, this is something I can really get behind because I still get to work in music and sound, but also don't have to, like perform for a living. Yeah, like, maybe make some money.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Matt Mikkelsen

And yes, I went to school, a small liberal arts college in upstate New York, called Ithaca College and was studying sound production, you know, recording and engineering. And I realized shortly into my study of sound that like I was setting myself up for a life spent in a studio, sitting at a desk, looking at a computer day in day out. Which all of a sudden seemed less appealing, because I grew up, like very lucky to spend time outside my parents, you know, would take me hiking and backpacking and kayaking, and I just realized I was gonna miss that kind of daily dose of of nature or being outside or conservation, you know, like working to protect the environment. So I set out to try and find this way to combine my love of music and microphones and sound, and this like real need and love to be outside and be in nature. And that's how I came across Gordon Hempton and his work to try and recognize and protect quiet places around the world. And here we are, like eight years later. [Laughter]

Ariana deVries

It's funny how life just has those kind of twists. It's pretty fun.

Matt Mikkelsen

And it's funny, the same podcast that brought you and I together is the podcast that brought Gordon and I together.

Ariana deVries

Oh, really?

Matt Mikkelsen

Because I heard him on Krista Tippett's OnBeing.

Ariana deVries

Thank you, Krista.

Matt Mikkelsen

Yes. Oh my god, all the praise to Krista in the world. She's phenomenal.

Ariana deVries

She's who I look up to for podcasting.

Matt Mikkelsen

So good. But yeah, and I just sent him an email and I said, I was like, 18, and I said, what you do sounds really cool. I have the email like I've I've pulled it up since so cool. And I just say like, I love what you do. I'd love to hear more about it. Sounds like Yeah, but I was a kid like I was like, had no experience. And he took the time to like hop on a phone call with me. And by the end of that phone call, I had planned a trip out to visit him and for him to teach me like what he knew or some of what he knew a little bit of what he knew about sound recording and Um, yeah, that natural sound and how to record it and how to recognize it and how to appreciate it.

Ariana deVries

So that's really fantastic. Well, he speaks highly of you. So I think that he has been able to pass on some of his knowledge to you. It sounds like.

Matt Mikkelsen

I hope so. I like to think so. We joke all the time that I'm like, you know, I'm the I'm the apprentice, I'm a maggot turning into a fly larva that will one day become a butterfly. He's a phenomenal human being, like when you hear him interviewed, he's like, that's just who he is, as a person. He doesn't script what he says. He's just very true, very open and isn't selfish with his knowledge. Like, I think a lot of people who reach that upper echelon of their fields end up closing in and hoarding that information. And he doesn't, which is just so beautiful. And I feel very lucky.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, that's really, really great. And that benefits all of us.

Matt Mikkelsen

Yeah, right. It's like, why learn all this stuff? If you're not gonna share it with people, right, you know?

Ariana deVries

Yeah. So did you have some sort of epiphany moment where you're like, because you talked about that a little bit where you realize I didn't want to sit in an office all the time and do my work? What was it that caused you to be like, the earth needs to be talked about, and how it's being treated needs to be talked about? Was there a moment that stands out your mind when you decided this is what I need to do?

Matt Mikkelsen

I think it was kind of twofold, I realized that I needed to work to help protect the Earth and work in conservation and to reverse the impacts of climate change after my first winter spent in upstate New York. And instead of going home, like most kids do, for that long University break, I went home for the holidays, and then came back for a winter semester class. That was it was called winter sentinels. But it was really like a naturalist class where we learned about our ecosystem and how to, you know, like build shelters and make fire and wild craft different like medicines and all this really weird stuff. But it like really gave me a sense of place like for the first time, I think I felt very at home outside in the woods. Instead of like going to the woods, having a trip going for a hike and coming back, I felt like I was just spending all day in the woods, 8-10 hours overnight, multiple days in a row, because it really felt like home. And that's when I realized, okay, I can't spend all day inside, that's not going to work for me. My epiphany when it came to sound recording, I think was when I first met Gordon in person. He lives in the very northwestern corner of the United States. And so I drove from New York to his place in Washington State, and I don't remember if it was a specific moment, but I just kind of remember everything clicking and being like, Oh my God, if I could spend my life trying to listen to nature, I think that would be a good life for me. And I say trying to listen to because it's not something you ever, like stop doing right? Even, you know, people like Gordon who have spent most of his life doing it, he still doesn't call himself a good listener. He's just trying to be a good listener.

So I thought that quest was like really beautiful and really meaningful and would kind of give me all the different things I needed like this like nerdy scientific button pusher that I love being with being outside and appreciating nature. So yeah, it was like this real kind of eye opening moment. And I think I remember like talking to my mom about it and being like, I'm gonna go see this major sound recorders in Washington State. And she was supportive of me, which is so amazing. And I mean, all my family was, and I'm very lucky for that as well.

Ariana deVries

Supportive families can take you a long way.

Matt Mikkelsen

Yeah, absolutely. And it's something that I think I took for granted for a long time. You know, like when you grow up with a supportive family, I don't think you really realize how special that is, and what a privilege it is to have a supportive family until, you know, you know, someone who's not in that situation or your situation changes. But yeah, for your 17 year old kid who just spent their like winter semester making medicine out of plants tells you I want to go record nature sounds. I give them a lot of credit for being supportive. Yeah.

Ariana deVries

I find it interesting that you were talking about doing that class, and how that is what caused you to think differently about things because I feel like especially for people who live in the city we are very disconnected from what is happening outside of our buildings outside of our homes. Especially And now because of COVID. But just that whole sense of, especially in winter, it's cold, and it's gross. And it's not nice to be outside or in the summer I live in Ontario. So the seasons are very drastic. And it's either really hot, and we don't know how to be in nature. We don't know how to enjoy the cold, and we don't know how to enjoy the hot, really.

Matt Mikkelsen

Yeah, it's true. Yeah, I think there's, I mean, like, obviously, like we are, it's hard to feel like we are a part of nature or that like, we all grew together, like the environment and humans and animals like, it's, it feels like a very separate thing. Like we are humans. This is the natural world, humans exist outside of that natural world. But I think that's a relatively new way, and a Western way of thinking, where we all of a sudden have outside versus inside, right? And inside is a place where you're safe, you're warm, you're dry, outside is a place you are cold, hot, wet, dirty, whatever. And, I mean, look, I mean, I think a very small portion of the world looks at looks at it that way, like Europe, North America, parts of South America don't even see it that way.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. That's where I feel like part of our evolutionary behaviour has come to not be as helpful.

Matt Mikkelsen

Yeah, totally. And I think one of the reasons why we've allowed ourselves to treat the earth so badly, you know, and to just take take take with no sort of feeling of consequence, because we have these safe indoor spaces that have heaters and all this stuff. It's zero degrees Fahrenheit outside right now, where I live, and I'm toasty and warm, in my nice little box. But learning to be comfortable in those adverse conditions. Not only is like fun, but it also feels so right. And I've had like, a lot of experiences where I take friends or family, or even like reporters and journalists, from cities, out to these quiet places that we work to protect. And just like for so everyone knows, like when I say quiet, I'm not talking about overall sound level, I'm talking about noise pollution. It's like an important distinction, because the Amazon jungle is very loud, but there's no noise pollution. So that's still a quiet place.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Matt Mikkelsen

So I'll take people from these dense cities like New York, or Seattle, or name a big city, into these really quiet places. And it's like, I almost see them, their eyes get bigger, their shoulders, like come down. It's like, they're able to take this deep breath. Because when you're comfortable in nature, it's I feel like a lot of the problems that we face in our lives, like kind of they don't go away, but they fall into place. At least I feel that personally, it's like when I'm outside and in nature and listening, all these like things that I'm stressed and anxious about, sad about. They kind of all fall into place. And I can like find more joy in my life, which has been so crucial, especially over the past year.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Matt Mikkelsen

Yeah, nine months, whatever it's been, it feels like 40 years.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, yeah.

Matt Mikkelsen

And I feel so lucky that I get to go outside and enjoy myself. But I think learning how to deal with cold learning how to deal with hot, learning how to deal with bugs, rain, all these things can like help you get outside in a way that's much more comfortable. And being outside feels good. It really does. Lean into it. And even if it's just a walk around your local park or your neighbourhood.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. No matter how much you want to tell yourself that it won't.

Matt Mikkelsen

Yeah, exactly. It feels so good to just breathe not indoor air. You know?

Ariana deVries

You were talking just a moment ago about the difference between silence and quiet. Can you expand more on that so we can have a better understanding of what those differences are?

Matt Mikkelsen

Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, where to start. But as you know, after the Industrial Revolution, machinery, fossil fuel powered machinery, especially, started creating a lot of noise, all of a sudden we have 1000s of airplanes in the sky. I live by any given time. Yes, me too. I have planes that fly over as well. There are so few places left in the world that are free from noise pollution

And because we have these planes flying over most of the land in North America is within like two miles of a road. So car noise, airplane noise, when you go to the beaches, you have shipping traffic. there's so few places left where you can just listen to nature without any noise pollution. And people all the time are like, What? Why would you think about noise pollution? Like it's such an abstract, weird, niche thing to think about? But it's important for a few reasons. One is that animals, birds, any wild thing uses sound as a resource.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Matt Mikkelsen

So like owls, they use sound to hunt, if there's a little bit of noise pollution that prevents an owls from being able to effectively hunt its full range, and it has to spend more energy, trying to find that little mouse in a bush at 100 yards away. So animals need quiet.

Humans need quiet too. Like there's lots of scientific studies that pretty much conclude that like noise pollution is bad for your health. You work in a loud factory, you're like more subject to have cardiovascular issues, your stress hormone levels are higher, you have difficulty interpreting information and retaining that information. In children, these studies are wild. Like when you see a school that's close to a train track versus a school out in, you know, like a wealthy suburban countryside. The disparities are huge. And it's not solely because of the sound, but there are relationships to be made.

So we all need quiet. The antidote to all those bad things from noise pollution is quiet. As soon as you get into a quiet place and get into nature, your stress hormones lower, your heart rate lowers, your breathing slows. We know all these things.

I mean, I love spending time outside in nature - call me a tree hugger. I love it. But this is like science stuff, you know. So it's important that we have quiet and because of mass transportation and all these things, we're losing quiet places, they're becoming extinct at a huge rate. Like in the United States alone, we estimate that there are fewer than 10 quiet places. And when we say quiet place, we're not even talking about totally free from noise pollution. We're just talking about free from noise pollution for like 15 minutes at a time.

Ariana deVries

That's crazy.

Matt Mikkelsen

Yeah, so even like, our biggest national parks are huge wilderness areas. Airplanes fly over every few minutes. So finding a place that's free from noise pollution for more than 15 minutes is extremely hard to find. And that's like what I do is like look at maps, look at air traffic, look at roads and try and find places that'll be free from noise pollution. There are so few left. And that's what we're doing at Quiet Parks International (quick plug for the nonprofit that Gordon and I both worked for), is trying to identify and protect these quiet places while we still have them and get people to them. So whether it's a wilderness quiet Park, like in the Amazon jungle, whether it's an urban quiet park, like in Seattle or New York, or a quiet trail, we want to be able to tell people here's your closest quiet place, go to it and enjoy it. Cuz we all need quiet.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. I'm curious, what kinds of things you are doing to when you say protect and preserve quiet places? What does that actually look like?

Matt Mikkelsen

It definitely changes a lot based on the area. Okay. Generally, it's not legislative, it's not about laws. It's we've tried to go that route, you know, like working with the Aviation Administration and different sorts of governments it just, it just doesn't really work. So what you need is local buy-in from people. So for instance, we're working on a quiet park in Colorado and one of the local communities there is I'm gonna say highly religious, but I mean it very broadly. Like there's a lot of monasteries, there's churches, there's temples, there's, it's like a place that a lot of spiritual and religious folks have gathered. And quiet is a core practice for them. And right next door is a national park. So like they want their national park to be quiet. Because yes, they realize it's good for nature. It's good for them and it's good for their religious practices and their sacred spaces. So getting local buy-in is important.

Same thing with the Amazon jungle does a bolo wilderness quiet Park, which is the world's first quiet Park, the Kofun people who are native to that area, need quiet to continue their way of life, they need to hunt, they need to be aware of predators. They need all these things to continue preserving their land and maintaining their way of life. So it's really like identify a spot. It's kind of how we do this, we identify the quiet place, we figure out who lives around that area, who cares about it, and try and empower those people to continue protecting and advocating for the preservation of that space. And it's not just about sound like when we find a quiet place. It's soundscapes are like this amazing indicator for the overall health of an area. So if you have a place that's mostly free of noise pollution, and it has a lot of biodiversity, that place is also it's quiet, but it's also like pretty healthy, because there's not resource extraction, there's not a highway that runs next to it, all these other things. So that was a very long rambling answer to your question. I'm sorry.

Ariana deVries

That's okay. No, that's totally okay. Cuz this helps us to understand better. And talking about quiet parks, what would that look like? Because, for me, not having a full understanding of what that means, I automatically think back country, Algonquin Park in Northern Ontario type of quiet place, but you just mentioned urban quiet places. So what would that look like? Because I'm a suburban stay at home mom, and how would I find places like that just around where I live?

Matt Mikkelsen

Yeah, so it's a great question. We, on our website quietparks.org, have a map. And that map is like a bunch of wilderness quiet parks, some urban quiet parks. But it's important that like, wilderness areas are only accessible to a relatively small amount of able bodied people who can like take a vacation or be able to drive there or have the means to like buy the equipment necessary. So it's important that we preserve these wilderness areas, because they're global resources. But also, it's important that everyone can get to a quiet, more quieter place.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Matt Mikkelsen

So urban quiet parks program is run by this amazing guy by the name of Olaf Bowman, he's in Sweden. And essentially, it's like taking into account culturally, what is quiet for a given area. So in New York City, Central Park, if you've never been there, it's like this big block of green space in the middle of New York City. And there are, I'll put quotes up, you can't see me. But I'm putting quotes up quiet places in Central Park, where you can go and sit by a stream, and kind of almost forget that you're in the middle of one of the biggest cities.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Matt Mikkelsen

And that kind of access is arguably, in my opinion, almost more important than like getting out into deep wilderness areas to preserve them. So and what we do is like -it's amazing - I'm tooting the horn of this organization that I work for so much, but we're all volunteers. And there are hundreds of people all around the world, who just realized that quiet is important to them, or they want to help protect quiet places near them. So I'll get an email from someone in Maine a place a random place, and they say, Hey, I have a city park near me that's like, really pretty quiet. And I love going there because it makes me feel relaxed, and how can I help. And then we work with those people to take measurements of how quiet it is, give them resources to talk about that quiet and maybe work with local nonprofits to sponsor a quiet Park award, which then puts puts it on the map. And then everyone knows, oh, I can go to this place. It's quiet or quieter than what I'm used to. So this is also like an open call for anyone listening. If you know of a quiet place, email us like get in touch because that's what we do is we just like try and empower people to protect these places. We can't have like, I don't travel all over the place to protect these spots. It's about empowering your local communities to recognize and protect a pretty rare and important natural resource.

Ariana deVries

So when these places get put on the map, and more people would start going to them how do they stay quiet?

Matt Mikkelsen

That's the common conundrum of all outdoor access, like how do we maintain the character of a place while still allowing people to visit?

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Matt Mikkelsen

And we need people to visit the places because they need to know they're important. And they need to feel that they're important. But we also can't have so many people visiting that it's polluted, and there's cars on the road and all this stuff. What we've found so far is that the places that we award as quiet places, when people go to them, they're going for the quiet. So when you're like actively trying to be quiet, you can maintain the character of that place. That makes sense. And it's Yeah, instead of like, it's very directed tourism, I'd say or even if it's just your local park, it's like a very directed activity where you're going for the quiet. So you'll be quiet, and you want to maintain the quiet there. As opposed to a lot of like, at least here in the United States, our national parks are, sometimes they almost feel more like amusement parks than national parks. Yeah. Because there's so many people that come in, there's pollution, there's trash everywhere. It's hard to maintain the character of these places. But as soon as you go a mile into a trail, you have people who are there to experience the nature. So it's like, no one's throwing the wrappers on the ground. People are there to appreciate and enjoy. Yeah, enjoy nature.

Ariana deVries

And do you think there are ways to help people to help create a greater sense of empathy and people towards the earth and quiet places who maybe haven't experienced that before? or haven't been connected to it before? Because I know for me personally, I have a lot of people in my life or past versions of people in my life, who, who didn't think that caring for the earth was valuable? Or they thought their time here was short. So what's the point? So do you have ways of sharing empathy with people towards this?

Matt Mikkelsen

It's something I think about every day. Like, how do we get people to just care in general, about something more than yourself? I think you talked all about having a safe place to talk. So here we go, I'm going to use it please. In America, the past four years, I have seen this country that I love, and I'm very proud of very much swing more towards a place of caring more about your individual self and less about your neighbour. To me, the beautiful part of America. And a lot of countries that have like open and encouraged immigration. And travel is that like, we love and care about our neighbours. It doesn't matter why they're here, how they got here. They're a human being, I love them, I want them to be taken care of the same way that I'm taking care of. That has it's been very interesting the past four years, with our president to see like that language shift. And I've seen it. I've seen it happen to people that I know and love is that like no longer do they care about people waiting at the border who are under threat of violence. It's not about like welcoming these people to have safety in our country. It's about like, us versus them.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Matt Mikkelsen

I think that's a very dangerous path to go down. Because after all, like, we're all in it together, you and I live in different countries. But what's good for me is often good for you too, especially when it comes to the environment and to climate change and conservation. That border between the US and Canada is just like some imaginary line on a map. Things change, but not really like if all of Canada or all the United States is deforested, and all of a sudden, that's a toxic wasteland. That's going to impact both of us, you know. So that's like a little bit of a rant. But what I'd say is that people who don't understand why protecting the environment is important. Why? Recognizing and working to fight climate change is important. Why quiet is important. Instead of me telling you how you should feel my challenge would be to go outside and just be there. Yeah, take a hike in your local park. If you can go camping for a night, go car camping. Just spend some time in nature and ask yourself the question again, why is it important? Because I really think the answers become endless. Once you're in a place like that, you know, like once you are in nature and enjoying it. The list of like, why we need to save these places is so long and lengthy. It can't even be really spoken about.

So I think it becomes self evident why we need to work to protect the environment as a broad stroke or quiet once we experienced them and if you care about human There's lots of reasons if you care about animals, there's lots of reasons to care about clean water, clean air. I wonder care about God, you care about religion, like any of these things, no matter who you are as a person, we can all marvel in nature and in the accomplishments of nature. And we all call it different things. But like, if you don't quite understand or you know, someone who doesn't quite understand, bring them outside, go for a hike, ask that question. And again, and it's okay to change the way you feel. Yeah, I think, especially, I think I've noticed in my culture, and I think our cultures are probably probably pretty similar. There's like, people are very scared to change the way that they think or change their opinions on something, which is a big disservice to everyone. Because we should be able to like getting new information and think differently based on that information. There's no shame in like changing the way you think about stuff. It should be encouraged, and it's beautiful. You know, it really is. So another long rant of an answer.

Ariana deVries

That's okay. And I think that shows an element of maturity, when you're able to change your views on something or change your ideas on something based on what other people have shared with you, or what you've been reading and learning about, and you grow. It's not that we're changing necessarily, but we're growing and becoming different or better, or other versions of who we can be. Yeah,

Matt Mikkelsen

Totally. Yeah. And I think especially with COVID we've seen the scientific community say, this is what we know. And everyone says, Okay, this is what we know. And then they say, actually, we need to like step back, or this is more of what we know. And that has translated into people like questioning if masks work or what a vaccine does. And it's like science is meant to evolve. All the time. In science, we think we know something, more information comes out, we incorporate that into it, it changes our understanding. And it's scary to like be vulnerable in that way. And to know that pieces of information can change your whole approach to to life. But it's important that we give that stuff space, because how else are we going to, like you said, grow and keep being better versions of ourselves.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. I wonder too, if one of the ways to help create empathy and others is to first feel that for ourselves, and to have empathy for ourselves and understanding more about how this works, and how this all makes sense. And, and when our thoughts and ideas change about things? Because if we can't even do that for ourselves, I don't know how we're supposed to do that for other people.

Matt Mikkelsen

Totally. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of like, pointing fingers at people and saying, you should think this or you need to feel this way. Or this is right, this is wrong. That conversation can't happen until we look inward, and we're like, ready to have those conversations with ourselves and have empathy for everyone else in the world. Yeah. It's like I remember, in elementary school, like we had this very, I went to a very progressive little elementary school, and we had an exercise where we like, had to embody different world leaders. And so like someone in my class had to like act like the head of I'm gonna sound uneducated, but some sort of terrorist organization that we were currently fighting, they had to like, embody that person and gain empathy for that person as to why they'd want to attack Americans. Yeah, that's like, Oh, this is a paradigm shift. And my thinking is that, like, you can always put yourself in someone else's shoes. Even if you know that they're wrong, or they're doing harm, it's still an important exercise to be able to do. Because it can then solidify your opinions or, on the other hand, make you question what you know.

Ariana deVries

And that's the journey that I've been on over the last, I don't know how long...10 years or something, of being okay with questioning and being okay with doubting and just being okay with not being okay and not knowing, and to see where that ends up where that takes me. And just to enjoy that process. Instead of being like, I need to get here. I need to get there. I need to get from point A to point B, and I don't want to have to worry about being empathetic.

Matt Mikkelsen

Well, I think there's so much beauty in the unknown, like some of the most beautiful and like thought provoking things that we have in our human lives are things that we don't know about, that we don't have confirmation of. And that's what makes those things so special, you know, like, knowing everything would be lame, like why would we want that? Let's like being able to question and being able to not answering those questions is really powerful.

Ariana deVries

Going back to the quiet places, and the work that you do, I am really curious when you're out there in nature and when you are recording the sounds and the sound scapes. Do you get lonely when you're out there by yourself? Or have you learned to embrace the quiet and the time by yourself?

Matt Mikkelsen

Yes, and yes. I think I spend more time alone than a lot of humans do. And not only like alone, like lots of people spend time alone in their homes or in their apartments, I spend time alone in these really big spaces where there are no other humans. And I know that there are no other humans because I've purposely done the research to make sure there are none. I'm very thankful for the time I get to spend alone. It allows me to think in certain ways, like that's where I go to think personally, that's not the right answer for everyone. But like when I need to think and have deep conversations with myself, I go outside to a quiet place to be alone. It is lonely. I spent two years straight living out of a van, and just traveling and recording by myself. I've had a partner for the past eight years. But she was traveling too and doing her work, I was traveling. And we'd go months without seeing each other. I go frequently, like weeks without talking to other people sometimes. Or a week, maybe. That's maybe being dramatic. But yeah, it is lonely. I think human connection is so important. Like physiologically, we want to have human connection. We want to like meet people, meet strangers, see family, see friends, hug people. Everyone is experiencing that need a lot right now, you know, especially like, I know, I've been separated from my family. Since the pandemic started, a lot of people have. We all recognize the need for human interaction now more than I think we ever have.

But the big the big but for me is that when I'm outside, and at that quiet place, and I'm recording, I stopped thinking about me, I doesn't even come in. I don't have "I" statements. Like I don't say, "I'm cold, I'm hot". For the most part I just kind of forget that I exist outside of this space. And it sounds really weird. That sounds like a weird thing to say. But it's true. It's like it's very meditative in a lot of ways. I don't currently practice any sort of meditation. I'm not super religious or anything like that. But it's the closest thing I get to that experience. And when I hear my friends and family who who are very spiritual or religious talk about their experience in church or in temple or in meditation. I think that's my version of it. It's like I forget that I'm even a thing and I'm just here in this place. There's no there's no I separate from it, which I think is really powerful. And something that a lot of people experience when they're hiking or backpacking, it's, you kind of forget that, like, you're a separate thing, and you're just so engrossed in the place that yeah, it's really transformational. For sure.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. It makes me think too if that feeling of aloneness is something that people would shy away from and why they would maybe not want to be alone, but also that feeling of connectedness. It's like a weird push and pull of I want to experience this, but I also don't want to be by myself.

Matt Mikkelsen

Yeah, well, I think too, it's like, I don't want to paint a picture that I like, have it being alone figured out.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Matt Mikkelsen

I have a few episodes of my favourite TV show and Harry Potter downloaded on my phone. So like, when I'm alone in the woods, if I'm feeling like I need to be connected or like need to be distracted, or I'm feeling scared, which happens all the time.

Ariana deVries

When you almost get hit by lightning.

Matt Mikkelsen

When I almost get hit by lightning. When there's like big megafauna in the area, like bears and cougars. And sometimes I just like I'm gonna watch TV, you know, like, it's so human. It's what we're used to, and it's our comfort. I think it's okay to not be okay, or to like, need something, especially when decision making is really important.

I often recognize that the decisions I'm making when I'm out there can - I don't want to say be life or death - but they're really important decisions. You know, I have to have a clear head. I have to be calm. I can't make decisions in the heat of the moment. I need to be pretty centred and pretty grounded. And so, I'm not a hermit. You know what I mean? I don't want to be totally alone. I love humans. I love people. I love airplanes. I love motorcycles. Like, I love all these things that people like. But you advocate for quiet? Why do you love motorcycles? It's like, I'm only human, you know what I mean? I love things that go vroom. I don't want to just because I like airplanes, and motorcycles doesn't mean I can't also appreciate quiet, you know?

Ariana deVries

Which is like the dichotomy of our whole world. There's two sides to every coin, and there are multiple sides to who we are and what we can enjoy. And there are so many sides to caring for the planet. And there are so many aspects of how we can all as individuals, be activists for the earth, it's not going to look the same for everybody. And that's why I was really excited to talk to you today about noise and quiet and how that is affecting our Earth. Because that's an aspect of climate change and industrial progression and modernization that we don't always talk about, but it is affecting our world so hugely. I appreciate your thoughts so much about this.

I would like you to share with us what is something that brings you great joy in talking about the environment and caring for the earth, and what is something that frustrates you with the work that you do?

Matt Mikkelsen

I want to recognize something you just said to which is that there's two sides to every coin. But there's also so much in between that. I think it's so important to recognize that like people in general are not wholly good or wholly bad. There's a whole myriad of feelings and emotions and actions that like make up who we are. None of us are perfect. None of us are totally imperfect. And it's important to give room for all of that. So we can like we said before kind of grow. And something that brings me great joy from the work that I do is spending time appreciating. In this case, it's sound. And it's the environment. And it's a place that for me that's like I think I get a similar feeling like when I have friends who pray to God or believe in God, like it's something bigger than yourself that you can just put your whole body into. And while I don't find it in God, I do find it in other places.

So for me, it's like about appreciating this huge, incomprehensible, completely intricate things. Looking at a tiny pebble on the ground and looking at an 800 year old Sitka spruce tree. Both are equally important. And it allows me to contemplate my own existence in a way that I really enjoy.

Something that makes me frustrated. I think at the current moment, especially is dealing with people who don't care, not just about nature, but just like don't care at all about anything. People who are apathetic and just kind of like a who cares attitude towards everything in their lives. It's not only frustrating for me, because I think there's so much more you could be doing. But it's sad to see people without reason to fight or without reason to care. And I think that's something we all experience. Like, there's just certain people that we know, or that we meet or that we've known in the past that don't care about anything. And I care so deeply about so much. It's almost maybe part of its jealousy, like, I wish I could care a little bit less.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Matt Mikkelsen

But it's frustrating to see people who just truly don't care about anything. Because what a waste, in some ways. That sounds pretty harsh. But there's so many people who aren't as privileged as we all are. And privilege comes in all these different shapes and sizes, and maybe it's an over utilized buzzword that's oversimplifying stuff, but why not use the short amount of time and whatever ability and resources that were each given or work for in our lives, and use that to make the lives of people that come after us or our neighbours better? Isn't that like, what it's not about? How much money you make, it's not about what you do with your life. It's at the end of the day, when your life is over, like, what can you say that you did? And if that's just like loving your family, if that's doing good for the earth, if that's about putting food on the table, it doesn't matter. All those things have equal value. But at least find something to, every morning, get you out of bed. That's what's important. And there shouldn't be value placed on this is more important than that, or this isn't important at all. But we all need something to keep us motivated, especially in times with like, global pandemic, and political unrest, and all these other things that we're dealing with this year. We all need something to get us out of bed, and what's that thing that's gonna get you out of bed? And whatever it is, like care about it and let it motivate you.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. And in saying that you kind of answered what I was gonna ask next. I was gonna ask, what was your final word of encouragement for people, but I think that was pretty good what you just said.

Matt Mikkelsen

Yeah, um, final word of encouragement, just get outside and be quiet. And even when you're done listening to this, close your eyes and breathe. Take a breath. So rarely do we give ourselves time to just...even just doing that felt so good.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Matt Mikkelsen

Give yourself time to breathe. Give yourself time to think - this is hard. For a lot of people, in a lot of ways. Not just now. But life in general is hard.

Ariana deVries

Actually, in our final moments, could you could you share a little bit of what it would be like to go out into a quiet place, and share shortly what that kind of experience would be like?

Matt Mikkelsen

More like logistically or kind of feeling wise?

Ariana deVries

When you leave your vehicle and when you go out and kind of the sense of place that you have by going there.

Matt Mikkelsen

Absolutely. Leading up to these trips that I do, or times I go out recording there, there is a lot of logistics, where on a map, how am I going? How do I get there? What kind of equipment do I need for sound recording? Do I need tents? It's like an expedition almost every time.

But when I get to the trailhead, or wherever I'm leaving my vehicle, I like step out of the car, start walking down whatever trail, usually it's a hiking trail, or walking into the woods, whatever. And I kind of stop pretty close to the car. And just put my bags down, and sit. Because all these logistics, the planning, kind of needs to leave my brain before I can be in that spot. And I just close my eyes. Once I know I'm in a safe space, I close my eyes and just spend a few minutes like really listening. What am I hearing around me? What can I pick out? Is there a distant stream or a river? Is there wind blowing over a ridge top? Do I hear birds? Do I hear anything else that's alive; trying to gain a sense of space.

And then it really is just about like, if you've ever like taken pictures or anything, it's the same thing. Like something catches your eye, you go towards it. Same thing. If I'm hearing something that I want to investigate more I go towards it. Doesn't matter if it's on the trail, if I have to like hike down and around a cliff band or something you just follow that natural instinct because we're born listeners. And we're good at it naturally. So I just try and give myself the power to make decisions based on what I'm hearing and based on what I'm seeing to move about the area. Yeah, that's how it goes.

And every once in a while, I'll be like, Oh, I'm hungry, I should eat. Or, Oh, I need to go to the bathroom. I should make that happen. But most of the time is spent just like trying to be connected with what my senses are telling me what am I seeing, hearing, smelling. And it's really liberating. If you can do that anywhere you go, like I've said multiple times, go to your local park and just sit and listen. Sit and watch. Don't give yourself a goal or an objective. Just try and sit there and just see what happens, because it really is very liberating for no one to tell you you have to do this or for you to tell yourself you have to do this. Just go and see. See what happens and be open for anything. Because those are the times that I've had the most incredible experience. Like, when I've recorded coyotes, packs of coyotes singing really close to me or when I almost got hit by lightning, like, all those things were very unexpected. But I let myself be open to those experiences. I could have done without the lightning one probably. But it's a really cool story and a really cool sound recording. So yeah.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. I like what you said there about us being born as good listeners. And I mean, that's what I said earlier with what my heart is for this podcast is to listen to each other and to really listen to each other, to not just hear what somebody is saying - the words that they're saying - but to hear the heart of what they're saying. And so thank you for sharing your heart, and for sharing your thoughts on this great world that we live in. And the love for the planet that you have and the work that you do. Thank you so much for being with me today and sharing that with my listeners. So yeah.

Matt Mikkelsen

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It is a great world and thank you for doing what you do. It's so, so, so important.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai