Season 1 / Bad Vibes: The Deep Story - with Arlie Hochschild

In this episode, Ariana discusses something we are all being greatly affected by right now - whether we live in the United States or not - politics.


Arlie Hochschild is our guest today and she offers great insights into the role human emotion plays in our politics. She is a sociologist and seeks to understand people beyond the decisions they make or the words they say.


She wrote a deeply impacting book called Strangers in Their Own Land which helped to bring understanding to the stories of anger and mourning of those on the American right. If you would like to read more by Arlie, there's a great article here and an interview here. She also wrote another book called The Managed Heart.


If you have any questions or comments regarding this episode, please don't hesitate to contact us at activelistening.life@gmail.com OR you can find us on Instagram and Twitter.

Ariana deVries

Well, welcome to the podcast everybody. I'm happy to be your host, Ariana, and today I have the great pleasure of interviewing Arlie Hochschild. Welcome, Arlie.

Arlie Hochschild

Well, thank you very much.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. So for those who don't know who you are, you're a professor emeritus at the University of Berkeley for sociology. You're a prolific author, a wife and mother, and you seek to understand the role human emotions play in our beliefs, politics and social life. So, yeah, tell me a little bit about what life was like for you growing up. You are the daughter of a foreign service officer, correct?

Arlie Hochschild

Yes, that's correct.

Ariana deVries

So how did this impact your view of the world with the amount of traveling and moving around that you did with that?

Arlie Hochschild

Well, I think it made me feel displaced a lot. And that was painful at the time, but turned out to be a wonderful, I think deep in a experience. But at the age of 12, I got plucked out of what felt to me like a normal childhood. And my father, his first post was in Tel Aviv, Israel, where he represented the states. And suddenly it was hot. Suddenly, I was taller than everyone. I had a different religion, I wore funny Oxford shoes to a Scottish Mission School, which itself was a cultural shock. Long, hot playground days and strict, strict. I remember my mother after I came back from my first day to beat the school in Java. And she said, “Oh, well, how was school, dear?” And I just wept. I was just wordless. It was awful.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

And then she said, “Well, don't worry. If after two weeks, you don't still find it awful, we can send you back to grandma and grandpa.”

Ariana deVries

Wow.

Arlie Hochschild

And then I thought, oh now I'm stuck. I didn’t.not want to see my parents for two years. So I thought I've got to adjust to this. And that turned out to be wonderful. So from feeling like a stranger, an oddball, displaced. I learned what a big world it is, how social rules are not the ones you got born into. And their social rules are as dear to them as ours are to us. And then after two years, we moved back for a while to Washington, DC and there too, I didn't fit in. So I think the experience of being displaced. A lot of people in sociology in one way or another, have gotten uprooted and rerouted have had in a wait migrant experience. Yeah, good for us. If we can be held while we go through and I it's enlarging. So that was one big influence. That's the sociology part of it.

I think the emotions part of it is that my mother, I sort of had to keep a watch on her. She, oh, I never knew kind of what the expressions meant or would be. And so I think knowing and analyzing them became defensive for me; kind of a good thing to be able to predict. I don't mean that she was wild or had a temper, but that there was something a little volatile there.

Ariana deVries

Hmm.

Arlie Hochschild

And my brother was a psychoanalyst; became one. And he focused on emotions. I learned a lot from him. So both he and I ended up interested in emotions.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. That's so interesting.

Arlie Hochschild

For that reason, perhaps. I just put a sociology to it.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, yeah. Right. It's so interesting to me how so much of our upbringing can affect what we end up doing for our whole lives really, and how it gives us a foundation for what we are passionate about oftentimes. So then, I guess you kind of explained my next question, because I was going to ask what got you interested in sociology and the study of human emotions, but that kind of answers that. If you care to expand a bit more than feel free, but yeah.

So on the topic of emotions, I feel like that's something that we are not super great at in this day and age, or ever, and especially, I feel like people in my age group, we're getting there, we're getting better. But with social media and things like that being such a big thing, and you can't have that face to face conversation as well - especially right now with COVID - it's a lot harder to be emotionally intelligent and emotionally honest. We often think of the person on the other side of our argument, or what we believe, as not being as emotionally capable as we are. But then we aren't being aware of how we're being emotional in this situation, either. So how would you describe an emotionally healthy or emotionally intelligent person?

Arlie Hochschild

Well, um, yeah, it's someone who is able to feel safe in and reaching out and in sharing an experience.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

And who feels safe also, in hearing and acknowledging the reality that another person lives in. In other words, I think often we're afraid; more of the time than we think we are.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

The very thing we need to communicate, and you speak of social media, and its enormous and deep influence on teenagers and their 20s. I think that's right. You know, what's occurred to me as something that would be wonderful to do, which would be to have a program a little like, Alcoholics Anonymous, you know, where I'm gonna cut down my media time to two hours a day. And that's it, I'm going to tell all my friends two hours a day, that's it; don't email me, I won't be able to answer. Set those terms. And then get together with a group of other people. A small group can be socially distanced, masked, but you meet them every day, or every, you know...your sociability is face to face. And you're all trying to create a face to face life that feels real and good. And where you could talk honestly. And so the sociability will get established offline.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

That'll be the default. So I think we need a better name for it than AA, but you get the point of it; call it The Other Life, or something fancy like that.

Ariana deVries

[Laughter] Right. Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

But that would be the idea.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Which would then give you community that you need and the rapport and the accountability to be able to do other things and function as a good human being in society, right.

Arlie Hochschild

Be safe to say, “Well, I slipped and it was 24 hours yesterday.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

You know, 18 instead of the three. I'm committed to it, because I do think it's an addiction.

Ariana deVries

Oh, yeah, totally is.

Arlie Hochschild

So we should treat it as an addiction and say, “Okay, what is an addiction?” It's the substitution of drugs or alcohol or sex, or, you know, there are a number of things you can get addicted to, that fills a void, where gentle human real connection should be.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, that's a really good point. And something that we need to be aware of so much more. Something that my husband and I have talked about a lot too is that disconnect between being able to give honest feedback or what is called the disapproving glare. Sometimes when someone may be saying something or doing something that may not jive with what you believe to be right and true, doesn't come across the same way on social media. And so then you aren't able to have that kind of honest back and forth kind of conversation in the same way. What do you feel about that situation and being able to give that sort of disapproving glare? Do you think that is something that is helpful in having conversations and being honest about thoughts and feelings, or...?

Arlie Hochschild

Yeah, I think a disapproving glare is a frightened fill in for full listening.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

It means your alarm system has gone off.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

And that that's all you have is that alarm system. It's almost instead of thinking.

Ariana deVries

It sounds instinctual, right?

Arlie Hochschild

Yeah, it's what you're feeling is contempt. But then you're arming yourself. You're living in not just a social bubble, but a personal bubble, where you're arming yourself with judgments, and blame and shame. That's the armor.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

And a lot of people think they're doing wonderful political work to trudge around in this armor. But it's sad, and it's a bad sign. I think when young people, especially young liberals, in college communities are saying, “No, we don't want to talk to the big bad people out there in Middle America and Trump voters.” That's a sign of downward mobility. That's a sign that your goodwill has been curled around into a knot and a conclusion. And that judgment is taking the place of communication with the outside world. So it's troubling. It's a sign that your site is losing. Its completely paradoxical.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

And what I think would be a good, interim step is if people got into the habit of saying, “As you say that I'm actually finding a judgment is coming up for me. And I'm wondering if we can talk about that; what you said and how I'm responding. I don't want to judge you as a person; you as a person and I as a person.” We're part of a whole of humanity. And we've got different childhoods, and we've been led to our positions in different ways. So I share the struggle of creating the empathy bridge with that person.

Ariana deVries

Mm hmm.

Arlie Hochschild

That's the thing. I have a funny story. A cousin of ours, said he saw a great, big Trump poster go up in his neighbourhood, someone who lived very close to him and drove by that person's house all the time. So he dropped a note in the guy's mailbox saying, “I don't understand why you're voting for Donald Trump. I’d like to have a conversation with you. And the guy dropped a note back in his mailbox. [Laugher] He said, “Ah, no. Ah, sounds like you have your mind made up.” And then this cousin dropped a note in to the Trump supporters mailbox and said, “I'm interested in listening. And then very quickly, the Trump supporter put a note in his box and said, “I'm interested in listening, too.”

Ariana deVries

Hmm. Wow.

Arlie Hochschild

And that's as far as it went! [Laughter] Yeah. It didn’t go any further than that! But how interesting how quickly you can open a channel. I think that's what this says.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Yeah. I would really love to talk about the book that you wrote Strangers in Their Own Land in talking about this more political side of human emotions here. I loved it. It was...yeah, it was something for me that was a jumping off point, I think, and sort of changed the trajectory of my life really, in showing me the humanness of politics, and that politics are about a lot more than just these policies that seem very far removed.

Arlie Hochschild

Yes, that's right.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Yeah. So the book that you wrote was called Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right. And in writing that you spent five years going back and forth between California and Louisiana. You immersed yourself in the lives of these people in order to understand why they made the choices that they did and how they were being affected by the choices that other people were making for them. So what inspired you to go on this journey and to write this book and to, yeah, immerse yourself in that way of life?

Arlie Hochschild

Well, I sensed already in 2011 that tensions were mounting with the rise of the Tea Party, as it was called then, and there was a strong anti government. We don't want to have a strong government. We don't like what it's doing; and very hostile to Obama. I thought, "Wow, these people are getting harder and harder to talk to."

Ariana deVries

Right!

Arlie Hochschild

Honestly, I was used to going to foreign places, because of my father's job. I thought, “Well, it’s time for a hardship post”, as they call it in the Foreign Service, you know.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

In a way, my parents are gone, but I sort of assigned myself a foreign post.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

You could say I didn’t consciously know I was doing it.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Arlie Hochschild

I just cam home and said to my husband, you know, I wonder why I did that. Maybe that was why.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. And it would feel like almost another country move going from California to Louisiana. Very, very different ways of living.

Arlie Hochschild

Yes. Very. And you know, what's interesting, I wasn't the only bridge builder, though. I mean, I would present myself I would tell them what I was doing. I'm writing a book, I'm interested in getting to know you, and writing honestly and fairly about your experience and what's led you to believe?

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

I would also say, I'm worried about this divide. And they would say, “Yes, we're worried about that divide, too”. We had that in common; it just might look like a slender thread, but it was a lot. Really. Okay. I'm gonna try and bridge that divide. Is that okay with you? And they would say, Yes, we'll, we'll try and help you do that. Yeah. And then they'll be good. But we think the problem is people like those around you, in your community, that look down on us and think of us as the flyover state that think were prejudiced and sexist and homophobic. The left has laid its judgments upon us, and we're angry at that. And we're humiliated. So, if you want to climb the humiliation bridge back over and find out who we really are, talk about us in our wholeness. Then, yes, we want to show you who we are.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, I like that. You have a quote from the book that says, “The right seeks release from overall notions of what they should feel. Happy for the gay newlyweds, sad at the plight of the Syrian refugee, and resentful about paying taxes. And the left sees prejudice.” That was a big, “Whoa, yeah.” We're trying to change the way that these people see life, and without any grace for the human side of it.

Arlie Hochschild

That's right.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

And without seeing that people you dub as limited in their outlook, would also see something limited in your outlook.

Ariana deVries

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

For example, I followed a woman around who had no mercy, in my view, for someone who didn't work. If they were able bodied and they didn't work she just said, “Let them starve.” And she was a religious person, but she felt that strongly about one's duty, religious duty, to work. If you're able bodied and you didn't work, you were not being devout and no one should help you live. So that felt pretty hardshelled to me. And then following her around one time, we were in her car and she stopped at her church. We opened the hood, and there were all kinds of plastic cups and plates. I said, “Oh, what are these for?” Well, it was a fundraiser for our boys in Afghanistan and in Iraq. They're 17 years old. They're 18 years old. They're frightened. They've never been away. They don't know if they're gonna get shot and killed. So we're having a fundraiser to get them what are called one touch pillows. Pillows that they lie on, and you're touching God if you touch the pillow.

Ariana deVries

Mhmm.

Arlie Hochschild

Okay, well, this is...I thought, okay, I don't live in your inner world. In my world. I just want to bring those boys home. But actually, I'm not thinking as carefully as she was about their experience being there; they were there. And that taught, gave me a little humble pie. Hey, why aren't they on my radar more than they are? So I began to think about empathy maps; that we all have a little map of who we should empathize with, and who we should not empathize with. Those people can be equally empathic, but they've just got different maps.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Arlie Hochschild

So anyway, climbing into this alternate world led me to think about the different patterns through which we empathize. It's not that they're cruel people. Not at all, not at all.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Which that leads me to my next question, and that is about the chapter in your book, where you talk about the deep story. And that was probably the biggest moment of the book for me and understanding, Okay, there's something much deeper going on here. So can you explain a little bit what the deep story is, and how that impacts our views of the world?

Arlie Hochschild

Yes, I began to think after talking to people for a very long time and a number of visits that politics is deeply emotional, and you can access these emotions and come to understand them as a deep story. What is a deep story? It’s what feels true about an extremely salient situation which distills the basic situation you're in. You take facts out of the deep story. You take moral precepts out of the deep story. It's just that narrative, that story and I think we all have a story, but the story on the right, is that, like a dream, you can dream you're waiting in line. At the head of the line is the American dream. You feel about yourself that you begrudge no one, but you deserve to move forward. You're hard working, you’re rule abiding, and then the first moment of the right wing deep story - you see people cutting in line head of you unfairly, as you see it. Who would they be? They would be blacks and women who through federally mandated, affirmative action have finally been given access to jobs and opportunities that used to be reserved for whites and men. Then cutting in line also are environmentalists because it's felt “Oh, the environmentalists worship animals, put animals ahead of people.” [Laugher]

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

There was that. So another moment of the right wing deep story; there is Barack Obama waving to the line cutters. Oh, he's their president. He's doing it for them. He’s forgetting us. That’s the second moment. The third, someone ahead of you in line, maybe somebody who lives in a large city on the coast, highly educated, kind of turns around and says, “You ignorant, ill educated, prejudiced, sexist, racist, fat, redneck.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

And then that's, Okay. That's it. People ahead in the line are condemning me, are criticizing me, are contemptuous of me, because I can't move ahead; but I can't move ahead because of them. That's the paradox. And in a final moment, there are chapters that in the last six months we've had to quick read through a variety of new chapters in the deep story, one of which is Oh, we have the the deep story President. Now, Trump is making us making the other side strangers in their land, we now have recovered our country. We're no longer strangers. He's led us out of the desert, and he's doing it for us. And then in other chapters of then right wing deep story, he's encountered enemies as he tries to do it for us. He's telling us that he loves us, we love him. Everything he is doing, he's doing for us. And then he's telling us, “Oh, I'm suffering.”

Ariana deVries

Mhmm.

Arlie Hochschild

“Don't you feel sorry for a person that’s suffering. I'm suffering from these enemies.This would be the treasonous mainstream press, ie: the Deep State. This would be scientists, the Center for Disease Control, all enemies. Those who want to impeach me and pass judgments on my making bargains with the President of the Ukraine. Enemy, enemy enemy. And so I am suffering because of these enemies. Join me in hating them.” So it kind of us-ing and them-ing is kind of the latter chapter of the right wing deep story. Now he's saying to us, “Look, I've suffered from COVID. This was a message from God, but don't be afraid of COVID. That is do not be afraid of the pandemic which has led to the death of 217,000 people. And over a million around the world. Don't be afraid of it. Be brave.” You know...this is the latest chapter. We're in the middle of that chapter.

Ariana deVries

Yes.

Arlie Hochschild

He has walked that path. So while he has asked for his followers’ devotion as he suffers, he seems to be asking them to suffer.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

So um, yeah. That's kind of that. It's sad, I think, and terribly worrying.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. And you talked earlier about turning your alarm system off so you can really hear somebody. In this situation, I find it really hard to turn off alarm systems and be able to really hear somebody. How do you think that we can sit with people and cross the divide in something, in what the american politics are like right now?

Arlie Hochschild

Well, I'll tell you, um, when...and this what I mean by take our alarm system off...I'm not a formally religious person. I don't believe in the Rapture, for example, I believe in compassion and empathy and extending it.

Ariana deVries

I'd be with you on that one.

Arlie Hochschild

With every breath, um, so it, you might say, has a devotional quality here, but I feel that secular liberals cannot tune in to the frequency along which Trump is communicating to his base. He is not himself a religious person, I believe, but he's brilliant at reading what projections, what feelings others are projecting onto him. “Oh, you're our Savior.” That's being projected onto him. It's actually a book, you know, that God has sent us to Donald Trump to take us from the wilderness. So he's responding back, and there is a whole conversation. I believe that, and this idea wouldn't have occurred to me if I had taken my alarm system off and tried to tune into that frequency.

Ariana deVries

Right. Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

Right? It’s not my frequency. But that's what we get to do as sociologists and try and do this to extend our own awareness. I think his saying, “I have suffered much as Jesus Christ suffered for your sins. I am taking all of this on for you.” He's positioning himself in this way. I am suffering and believe in me.

Ariana deVries

Mm hmm.

Arlie Hochschild

And people are saying, “Yes, he is our Savior. He is suffering for us.” And there's almost a crucifixion. Look, I got sick. (This is very interpretive, so I could be wrong).

Ariana deVries

Yep.

Arlie Hochschild

But now I've risen again, right? With Veritol and I will give it to you all.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Arlie Hochschild

I will save you. This is wish fulfillment talk. But if you're a true believer, and you're hearing him on this register, it kind of has a logic of its own.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Arlie Hochschild

So that's what I'm inviting us to be able to develop.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

I have a little sensitization to other people's messaging.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Arlie Hochschild

And in this case, perhaps the abuse of that messaging, but you wouldn't see it, if you know what he was trying to do.

Ariana deVries

Yep.

Arlie Hochschild

And how he’s trying to get his base behind him.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. And I think I understand that, because I did come from evangelical Christianity, and I understand the stories behind that, and the beliefs that they ground themselves on. I totally understand that. And you talk about being curious, and being open to the feelings, not just the facts, that the other side is sharing. And yeah, that is something that I have to remind myself of, too, is I understand because I've been there, and I know what it's like, and I want to understand now even further why it is you do what you do. Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

Yeah, that's right. And in a way, curiosity is not a cold thing. It's curiosity and interest to me are very fundamental parts of love.

Ariana deVries

Hmm. Okay. Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

To be really interested in what's going on there and decoding it, understanding it. That's, to me, the completeness of love. If you really, really are interested, you know, that's a gift to the other side. And it's wonderful to receive; be the recipient of it.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

So we need to extend that safely in politics. But first things would be a much more minimal goal, which is to just establish a table of civility on which we can talk about disagreements.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

Making disagreements safe. I think that's a first story. And this, I think, has to be done face to face. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's certainly better.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

A space where you're really acknowledging the other person's humanity. You have to; there they are. They're like you.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

And where you hear the stories that feel real to them. I think these morays are hidden in stories. So what stories feel big to them.? That's the thing to get curious about.

Ariana deVries

And I feel like it helps to be able to kind of, not remove yourself but to stand back and, and to see kind of both of you, objectively almost, in the situation and see yourself and see them. Instead of only seeing them and how it is bugging you. [Laughter]

Arlie Hochschild

That's right. You know, I had a conversation with a man during one of these living room conversations. This is a program that brings - in a living room - six liberals, six conservatives, and you break bread together. It's started by a mediation lawyer named John Blades. And I did one in our living room with some of the people I wrote about in Strangers who come to Berkeley to visit me. And there was a man, a very right wing man, and we were talking about...the topic was cleaning up the environment. And we went around the room once. Well, what kind of world do you want? Everyone said, “Well, we love clean water, clean air, clean soil.”

We all agreed on the goal. Okay, how do you get to the goal? Do you think it's enough just to leave it up to petrochemical companies, not to have dumped their emissions into clean waters? You just think, “Is that enough?” So we talked about that, and we can have differences. And this conservative guy said to me, “Well, when you have environmental regulations it reminds me of a story (that hadn't happened to him, but happened to somebody he knew) where a man had wetlands on his property, and there had to be certain wetlands mitigations done, and that some environmentalists trooped on to this man's land. One even had a gun, and said, “Well, I'm going to see your wetlands.” Imperious and intimidating. But when he told that story, I could say to him, “Well, if that story was what I thought the Environmental Protection Agency represented and what EPA scientists who were wetlands experts were like - well, if I was living with your story, yeah, I can see how I wouldn't like that.”

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

I'd be frightened and angry. So that's an example of how you kind of climb into their story. And then you say, but is that the story?

Ariana deVries

Hmm. The full story.

Arlie Hochschild

Give me the details.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

Let me tell you another story that represents kind of how I think it usually works out, and what the rules are against doing what to say this EPA person did. So that's an example of how you kind of climb into the other person's story. And there can be then a questioning of the terms of the story. But don't ignore the story.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Yeah. So then what would you say is your deep story?

Arlie Hochschild

Oh my. Um...at the end of Strangers in Their Own Land, I talk about a what I think of as a more progressive, deep story; which does not involve a long line where I'm stuck. In fact, there's no line at all. It where a circle, and it's kind of an incorporative circle in that when someone new comes in you break holding hands with the person and incorporate them. In the middle of this circle is a public square with public museums and libraries and schools of the highest order. It's idealized. No, this is progressive story.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

And that you see in the center of it, this state of the art children's Science Museum, anybody can come. You don't have to be rich, it's free, or almost free. And it's paid for by taxes, which people in the surrounding circle believe in the museum and they're happy to pay those taxes. And many people who circle are actually the architects of this museum; they built it or are public sector workers, you know, they sweep the floors in that public museum.

Then another moment of this progressive deep story, along comes a big excavator. And it gouges out the concrete, fundamental baseline of this museum just digs out 20 feet of concrete whirls around goes out of the circle, and uses it to build a private McMansion in a gated community privatization that, and people in the circle are furious. What do you mean, you're stealing from the public realm that's shared? Where there is diversity and a kind of culture of helping each other, you're subtracting not only the concrete, but the belief, the faith in doing things, focusing on contributions to the community. So privatization and just letting the rich get as rich as they can is anathema and a subtraction from something sacred. Now, are all public institutions state of the art? No. Do people not resent it? No, but I'm speaking of a deep story that I think is based in an ideal, that is treasured; that I treasure.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, I feel that very deeply as well; with the understanding that I'm increasingly coming to with politics and with seeing my community as people who are working towards a good life, and how to support them. Also seeing politics as something that is incredibly nuanced, and a labyrinth full of facts and emotions all mixed together. None of us can do it by ourselves. We need everybody to work together to make this a beautiful life. Thank you so much for sharing that. As we bring this to a close, what words of encouragement can you offer the listeners in regards to embracing our deep stories and embracing the stories of others, and what gives you hope for the future?

Arlie Hochschild

Um, what gives me hope for the future actually are the young. Millennials, “Hey, I'm talking to you.” [Laughter]

Ariana deVries

Yay!

Arlie Hochschild

To join what it really, I think, can build it into a movement. There is something called The Bridge Alliance, which encompasses some 80 different small organizations where you talk across the divide. But I think we need to get going with something larger and more publicly shared. High School exchange programs, for example. There is one called the High School Exchange Program where you get Southern kids to visit for three weeks their opposite number in the North. You get the North to go South and the coast to go inland; inland to go coastal. I think that needs to be massively upscaled, brought to scale, and maybe some kind of volunteer national program where people can work on projects together; because much of our political difference today turns out to be differences of region, as well as differences in social class, blue collar, white collar employees. So those are the three things we need to develop.

Ariana deVries

Hmm. Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

It would be great to get people on each side to do films! You know, I was the stranger in another land, and I went and I saw this.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

And then, thinking aloud here, have each kind of view the film that was made, so that people who were filmed get to see how they were seen.

Ariana deVries

Hmm. Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

There’s so much that can be done. But, I think the first thing is to realize that empathy isn't your enemy. It's your tool and it's the culture’s protection. But a lot of people think, “Well to empathize with that, Trump supporter or that Biden supporter, it's giving in. Its weak.” Empathy isn't weak. Empathy is strong. There are two kinds of it. One way leads to strategies for building bridges across this divide. It's strong, and it's instead of the blame-shame game, which is very much a result of living in your own little bubble. I think our greatest leaders, if we look at Nelson Mandela, for example, was a brilliant bridge builder. He had made his negotiations with the architects of apartheid in Afrikaans. What a man. My gosh.

We all should learn from the best. And even if we look at today's ruptured politics, there are alliances you can see, for example, George Soros got together with the Koch brothers, they both finance the opposite sides, but they both put money into reducing prison populations, because they, for different reasons, believe too many people are landing in prisons. You take Alexandria Cortez who made an alliance with Ted Cruz. They're opposite sides of the spectrum. You can't get more opposite.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

And yet they jointly opposed Congress people finishing their terms and kind of rolling over into lucrative lobbying positions; sign of corruption. They jointly put together a bill against that. Good for them. Let's have a lot of that.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Arlie Hochschild

It's not enough, but it's a start. So I would like to see millennials kind of lead the pack in that kind of thinking.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. And that would be an example of where empathy would be a huge show of strength when you can come together and make something stronger. Yeah. Thank you so much, Arlie, for sitting with me today. I really appreciate it. I hope others can also take what you've shared and be empathetic towards others and see people as full humans with the range of emotions and stories that come with that.

Arlie Hochschild

Well, it's been a pleasure talking with you. Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai