Ariana deVries

Welcome to the podcast, everybody. I'm your host, Ariana. And I have the great pleasure today of interviewing Phil Drysdale. For those of you who don't know who he may be, he currently resides in Sale, England with his wife. He loves theology, although he's not a theologian, and he has his bachelor's degree in Computer and Network Design and Management. He also graduated from the Bethel School of Ministry. You're active on social media, and you write topics within Christianity, correct?

Phil Drysdale

Yeah, sometimes.

Ariana deVries

You also have a podcast called the Phil Drysdale Show. So can you tell us a little bit more about yourself? What are some things happening in your world right now?

Phil Drysdale

Sure. Well, I mean, with COVID and stuff, not much is happening in my world right now, but uhh [laughter]...very much just sitting in the house.

Ariana deVries

Yep, no. That's pretty much how it is for everybody.

Phil Drysdale

But yeah, no. So I used to travel and speak a lot in kind of Christian, mostly charismatic, Evangelical kind of circles and, you know, do a lot of church meetings, conferences and stuff. And in doing that I came across loads of different people that were going through different pain points were realizing that they had problems within the church that the church wasn't able to answer. There wasn't a safe place to ask questions. Obviously, you ask the question of the random guy that's visiting.

As a start, I personally had already kind of unraveled a lot of my faith and was just trying to kind of go into churches and help people take a few steps forwards in certain directions I thought might be more healthy. And in doing all of that, I've kind of stumbled into finding myself helping those that are in the process of it. A common expression for it would be deconstructing their faith is a very buzzword right now. There's 110 different words that people use for this kind of process. But basically people that are going through a radical shift in their way of seeing the spiritual world, their spirituality, which can be very hard, very destabilizing, very scary, very exciting; a whole host of emotions go along with it.

Ariana deVries

Totally, I've been there. I've done that.

Phil Drysdale

Oh, there you go. You know that it's, yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot to go through. And it looks different for everyone. But there's definitely a lot of core similar themes that people people go through. And so yeah, my my life has kind of evolved into helping people on that journey, trying to give them a safe place to explore to journey that out to figure out where they're at. There's no requirement from me for it to look like anything. I really could not care less if you go from being a passionate evangelical Christian to an atheist or if you go from an atheist debate and passionate Christian evangelical, that's irrelevant to me. The end goal is not something that I really focus on. It's literally what is the next best healthy step for people that are going through a difficult season figuring out where they're at in their faith. Yeah, that's, that's really what I'm about right now.

Ariana deVries

All right, that's awesome. And so I guess this led you to start the Deconstruction Network correct?

Phil Drysdale

Yeah. So one of the things I discovered, I talked to hundreds of people every week, really a lot of what I do is spending hours and hours a day talking with people online helping them. So the best way to help people is a very one on one practical approach. It's not the most effective time usage, but it is the most effective in helping people. One of the things I found again and again and again was people were asking, “Look, I feel utterly alone in this. Is there anyone you know, that's in Toronto, California, LA or London, or whatever, Cairo?”

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Phil Drysdale

Because for most people to go on this journey. We don't realize this quite as much when we're in the mix of the whole kind of Christian bubble. But generally speaking, we can be best friends with someone for 30 years, and if you turn around and say, “Hey, I'm rethinking what I believe about God, or what I believe about hell, or what I believe about the cross.” Overnight, they don't want to talk to you ever again; they need to draw some very clear boundaries.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Phil Drysdale

Now, not every relationship is like that by any means. There’s a lot of very great wonderful people that that go alongside people on this journey and try and help. But even in that, that can be a very unhelpful process. It can be very controlling trying to get people back into believing the way that they want you to believe. Christianity has become very much a, for the majority in Western Protestant Christianity, has become a religion about right beliefs. So it's a list of right beliefs, and if you disagree, well, you end up in another denomination, hopefully. And if you disagree too much, you're not even allowed there. You know, you're out.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Phil Drysdale

So people find themselves, you know, kicked out of their communities, their churches, it's very, very lonely, very painful, they lose friends, often they lose family. I talk to a lot of people that completely are disconnected from their family. The family will not talk to them anymore - they're done. They're just written off.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Phil Drysdale

And, I mean, it talks about the depth to which we kind of link a lot of things to these beliefs. You know, I mean, this is a really important belief if you're willing to never talk to your son or never talk to your brother again, you know.

Ariana deVries

I know. It's crazy.

Phil Drysdale

That was the heart behind the Deconstruction Network was I was seeing so many people really feeling like they do this on their own, you know, the people that are end up leaving these churches. A lot of people leaving the church do not leave by choice. They leave by a decision of those within the church. It's a sign of the right boot of fellowship, a lot of people call it. What happens is you're seeing thousands and thousands of people...So in the US, the data In the US is the best data we have on things like us, but in the US we have 2700 people leave the church, the institutional church every day.

Ariana deVries

Every day. Wow.

Phil Drysdale

Yeah, that's over 3 million a year are leaving the church right now.

Ariana deVries

Wow.

Phil Drysdale

And that's not from one church to another church. That's people that decide I'm done with church. I'm not doing it anymore. And so you are talking a mass exodus. And so I can guarantee anyone that messaged me saying “I feel alone. I wish it was someone I could be processed with. I wish it was someone like me.” I guarantee there's probably two of them on his street. You know?

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Phil Drysdale

But you don't know, like when you leave a Baptist Church, because you no longer associate with the Baptist because you're charismatic, maybe. Well, you go to a charismatic church, you know where to go, you know where to find people like you. But when you think I'm kind of done with this whole institution of church, or maybe you've been kicked out of the institution of church, where do you go? There's not a get together and have a “no church” church, you know?

Ariana deVries

Yep.

Phil Drysdale

And so it can be very lonely. It's very hard to meet people. And so my heart was if I just put a map on the internet, and people could just put a dot where they are, and then you'd search, you know. I'm in LA ‘click’ and it goes, Oh, there's 40 people in LA, I can just send them a message and say, “Hey, do you want to get coffee sometime? Or do you want to chat online a bit and see if we click and and maybe, you know, go for dinner”, or just to try and meet someone in person, because there's so many Facebook groups and things like that on the internet that are barely holding this group of people together, you know. It’s very, very hard to be doing this in such a lonely place of mind.

But, these groups are like a lifeblood to people, but there's nothing. You know, sitting on a Facebook group a couple of times a day and chatting with people is not the same as you know, laughing till your belly aches at a pub with a friend, or crying on their shoulder because you're struggling. That's a very different experience. Everyone that's in the midst of COVID right now can can testify to this because they've started to realize what it is to turn all their friendships and all their relationships into an online relationship, it's not the same.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Now I know.

Phil Drysdale

And that's with people you know. Try doing that with people you barely know. And you just have a similar experience of being isolated from church or kicked out your communities or just trying to realize what you're about with God and figure that out. And so that's the heart and it's, you know, about one and a half thousand people in there. It is very slow going. It is quite brand new, really. But people already are, you know, meeting up with other people, people in Chile, people in Colorado, people in London, you know, all over the world, people are starting to connect. And that's a really exciting thing because it means a lot more than then you can really articulate on a podcast to write that person is genuinely life to them. To have another person they can see in the flesh and go, “Oh, you're like me, and we can talk freely and there's no judgement and we've had similar experiences. We know the pain that each other have been through.” Yeah, it’s great.

We're also doing a lot of research through that. So the goal was that through that website, we're going to be working with a research company here in the UK. And we're doing research into the deconstructing community because a lot of the rhetoric around what this group is like comes from the church. And so you go type deconstruction into the into the internet, you know, you'll get a good Charisma magazine or Relevant magazine article or something like that. And it's full of pastors telling you what deconstructing Christians are like, and it's just...it's bull. It's absolute nonsense. Most of them say “Well, they weren't passionate enough.” Well, that's not true, actually. Generally speaking, when you look at people that have deconstructed they are much more likely to have been heavily involved in their church than the average person in the church.

Ariana deVries

My hand is up. I was one of them.

Phil Drysdale

Yeah, it's almost always it's someone that is much more passionate and driven and pursuing God's in finding out what God is like in having a relationship with God. Those people are much more likely to deconstruct than someone, and it makes sense, than someone just kind of going to church on Sunday. Quite apt to sing a few songs and then go home and not think too much. Because the process of deconstruction generally comes from thinking too much. [Laughter]

Ariana deVries

Yeah, right. [Laughter] It’s very true.

Phil Drysdale

So that’s the people that go through this. So the lies that are spread about this group, as well, and I don't think it's an intentional smear campaign or anything. It's just ignorance. And so our heart to create data is to, hopefully change the narrative give a voice to those who don't feel they have a voice. Yeah. Sorry, that was a big long ramble about what I'm doing. But...That’s what I’m doing. [Laughter]

Ariana deVries

That’s great. You actually answered several of my questions in your ramble. So that's perfect. So I grew up in an evangelical faith community. What kind of faith community did you grow up in? And how did that impact your beliefs and start you on this journey?

Phil Drysdale

Sure. Well, my dad was a Baptist pastor, which is quite different. A lot of people in America, Canada will hear Baptists and probably think kind of more quite rigid, fundamental, conservative. That's just because one kind of segment of the Baptist Church has become the most popular. But the Baptist Church is actually very broad. And so he was actually a Pentecostal Baptist pastor.

Ariana deVries

Wow.

Phil Drysdale

They’re out there out there. My mom was very charismatic. And so I grew up in a kind of weird kind of mix of Evangelical, Baptist, Charismatic, Pentecostal. We were really small churches, my dad was moved around a lot, because he was an evangelist, so he’d bring in people like the town prostitute or that guy that got a divorce or, you know, he'd get these people saved and brought into church and then everyone would be staring at them from the front of the church with their nice prim and proper hats and suits. “Uh, you've brought a homeless man into church!” Or, you know, just didn't like my dad very much once they got to him, because my dad loved everyone. He really does. [Laughter] And so, we frequently were kind of moved around from church to church; often to very small, failing churches, because my dad was so good at bringing new people in, and he would get it to boom again. They would be growing and thriving. But that unfortunately pissed off all the kind of old guard. You know, they were really upset that all these new people. “But that person is homeless! Jesus would much rather a nice upstanding citizen!”

Ariana deVries

Right! Because that's exactly what the Bible says. [Laughter]

Phil Drysdale

100%, right? [Laughter] That's right. They're pretty sure that's the majority message of the Gospels.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Phil Drysdale

Yeah, and so I was quite disillusioned, if I'm honest. I honestly didn't really care. It obviously worked well for my parents. It was something they were passionate about. I just saw going to church is going to the same for old people that were constantly complaining, you know, one church we went to almost split over the color of the new church carpet. You know, I'm like, God's like, this is like, this is important to them. You know, as I kind of just got my head down. I kind of didn't really care about it as a kid. I didn't really think about that stuff. I probably prayed when I was going to bed and I was probably like, wrapped guilt over my porn addiction as a teenager because obviously that's all teenagers are talk to about is don't masturbate to porn. That's the one message that God cares about as this teenager.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Phil Drysdale

But it was only really it later on, I started to pray about the age of 16-17, I started to take things a bit more seriously because I'd moved to a new church where there's this thriving youth group. And I was like, Oh, this is interesting. People my age are engaging with this. And so I started to engage with it. But I'd always been brought up to think for myself to question; my mom really hammered that into me, which was really a downside for her, she has had to put up with a kid that was constantly questioning authority. But she'd always kind of said, you know, question things, don't accept things for what they are. You need to think about these things rationally. You need to research and look at is that true.

And so I was constantly changing my beliefs in my ideas, and I was bouncing around all over the place. I went from a Baptist Church to an independent church to a brethren church to a Charismatic church in California. I mean, I bounced around. And I've always been interested even when I was at the charismatic church in California. I was doing a Bible school that was charismatic, all the books were by the teachers there. And yeah, I was like, “Okay, well, if they're just going to be teaching one thing I need to explore”. So, I picked up like a John Piper book and Brian McLaren book; neither known for their charismatic inclinations. One extremely progressive, liberal kind of Christian, the other about as fundamental and conservative as you can get on the other side. And that's always been my nature to explore new, different ideas. And so growing up I've always kind of been questioning and adapting and growing in some way, shape or form.

Ariana deVries

And that's so valuable, especially having a parent who encourages that; encourages you to ask questions, and to not just be apathetic or just settle in with whatever is happening. That's really valuable, I think. And what we're trying to do for our kids, too, Feel free to ask those crazy questions, because there's not a lot of space for that. And if there's not even space for that in your home, that’s tricky.

Phil Drysdale

Yeah, gosh.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Phil Drysdale

If you can't do it at home, you're really going to struggle to do it elsewhere.

Ariana deVries

Oh, man. Yeah. So I guess you have been asking questions kind of for your whole life. I know for a lot of people, when they go away to school, or they start working as an adult, this is often what tends to trigger that because they're no longer in this small faith community of their childhood. Did you experience this at all? Or did it start for you before you went to school and started working as an adult?

Phil Drysdale

I think it's tough to say, you know. I would say, generally speaking, the huge shifts I took were very much when I moved to California. I took four years of my life off. I did this ministry school, I volunteered for the church for a few years - for a network of churches. I was traveling the world speaking at different churches and conferences. And it was really in that when I was exposed to such as a breadth of Christianity. That's when I started to really start asking questions, especially as I saw in such a breadth of Christianity it not working for so many people.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Phil Drysdale

And you know, we tend to focus on who it is working for, especially in our little bubble. You know, if we just are in our church, we focus on who's doing it. Well, we elevate them, we focus on them, they're the people on the front, and everyone else has just kind of given up well, you know, here's how to get to that place if you just try harder if you just do this if you just do that. But when you start to realize, "Oh gosh, that's actually a lot of people that this is not working for this little model". And certainly the questions that people had, I was shocked by. I mean, I probably grew a lot more because people were asking me questions that I hadn't thought.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Phil Drysdale

And I was like, "Oh gosh, I've never thought of that. But actually, now that I think about it, that's an interesting thing. I'm going to look into it". And I'd research what was different views on hell or what a different views on the cross or different things. And I'd be like, "Oh my gosh, we kind of have just ignored a huge portion of the church history on this one topic, because at some point the tradition that we come from settled on one idea and has only taught that one idea for the last 300-400 years".

Ariana deVries

Yeah, it's kind of mind boggling.

Phil Drysdale

It's terrifying in some ways, and understandable and another because if you genuinely believe that, if you don't believe that particular belief, you're going to burn in eternity for However, it's probably a good idea not to share the three or four other views and let people pick, because...

Ariana deVries

Right.

Phil Drysdale

I mean, just tell them the truth, right? On some level, I get that, I understand why people take that position, but it is a very fear driven position. It's not a position driven by inquiry, by truth. It's trapped by fear.

Ariana deVries

Right! Thinking back to that time, do you remember what it felt like when those first seeds of doubt and questioning started?

Phil Drysdale

I think I'm a weird, weird, weird person.

Ariana deVries

Yeah?

Phil Drysdale

So I noticed because I work with thousands of people that have deconstructed. I mean, I've talked to thousands over the last kind of eight years or so. And the vast majority, it's very scary. It's very terrifying. It's very painful. For me, it was really fun. I am a weirdo because I loved every second of it. It was not a scary or painful process. There were effects that were maybe slightly scary or there were effects that were painful. So I had things like friends that completely cut ties with me or mentors and things like that just completely overnight stop talking to me. I was pushed out of churches. I've been in churches that have pushed me out. And so those were painful processes, but to be honest with you, I was too excited about this journey of discovering new ideas, new truth, exploring new ways to engage spiritually with the Divine that it didn't really bother me too much. And so, I think I'm a bit of a weird anomaly in that, and it might be because I've spent most of my life questioning and realizing something's wrong. And my default reaction to realizing that I believe something wrong is to get excited about what could be true.

Ariana deVries

[Laugher] Right.

Phil Drysdale

That's not most people's default. Most people come to me and say, "Phil, I feel like I've wasted 40 years of my life. My entire life is just wasted". But for me, I'm like,"Oh gosh, no. I've been growing for four years and now I can grow in a new way". You know, I can I can start to add more depth to that growth. I don't see anything is wasted. And so I think it's just a different perspective that maybe helps me. I also have a condition called Alexithymia, which means that I don't know my emotions. And so when I feel happy, when I feel sad, I don't know that I feel happy or sad. It's only...

Ariana deVries

I wonder if my husband has that.

Phil Drysdale

It's more popular is more popular more common than and people think about 10% of the population are affected by it. And then within that there's a very broad spectrum. You know, yeah, a lot of people have it in that spectrum. I'm somewhere in there as well. Maybe your husband is, but it's very common for people not to be aware. But what what it means is often I'm not very aware of the pain and the hurt that sometimes this can cause because by the time I actually look back and go, “Oh, gosh, that was a really painful process for me.” I'm fine. I've kind of dealt with it, if that makes sense, which is kind of nice.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Phil Drysdale

Also, it’s a nightmare as well, because I can be irritable or annoying, or you know. My wife will be like, “Why are you so upset today?” And I’m like, “Am I? I didn't realize I was upset.”

Ariana deVries

Right, yep.

Phil Drysdale

But that can make part of the process of my personal deconstruction has been a...unique aspect.

Ariana deVries

Not as painful, maybe?

Phil Drysdale

Yeah, maybe, maybe so or at least I wasn't aware it was so painful.

Ariana deVries

Right. Right. Yeah, and I think that actually is very similar to what my husband's journey was with deconstruction, because we kind of did it together. But, I am much more of an emotional, feeling type of person than he is. So this was all a very exciting journey for him. And learning new things, that whole aspect of life is his MO constantly, all the time. He's always learning.

Phil Drysdale

Yeah.

Ariana deVries

And I've only just recently started to become more like that because of being married to him and seeing how much he values that and how helpful it actually is to learn, because I didn't grow up like that, I didn't come from a home where that was encouraged in the same way. It was a much more emotional family, which has its place as well. And so I am very good at reading emotions and feelings of others. My husband isn't very good at that most times. Love him. But we have our areas of skill and it's great that we are together in that.

Phil Drysdale

Yep! I'm sure he is very appreciative that you can help him with that. [Laughter]

Ariana deVries

Yep, totally. Yeah. So my experience of deconstructing was definitely more emotional, and it was definitely more of a grieving process of what I lost. And still things come up now and it's like, “Whoa! That is still something that was a big deal, and I'm still working through that.”

Phil Drysdale

Yeah.

Ariana deVries

It's like, wow. Because I used to be one of those. I was on stage. I was a worship leader. I was there every Sunday and bought in. I was born in the church that we attend.

Phil Drysdale

Yeah, wow.

Ariana deVries

Nearly born in the building. My mom went into labor with me while they were at church.

Phil Drysdale

Wow!

Ariana deVries

Yeah. So I have been in that faith community my entire life and to suddenly not think the same way and to question everything...I started out in the process, being very angry about stuff and just how do people not see this? How do they not get how hurtful this is for people? I'm sure you hear that a lot from others. So, yeah, it's been quite the journey. Lots of life experiences have contributed to it. We've gone on a infertility journey as well. And it's just lots of things that people don't understand, and yeah. It's really reassuring to hear that there are a lot of other people who go through this, too.

Phil Drysdale

Yeah. Well, and right now we're in our largest growing movement spiritually, in the Western Hemisphere. There's more people gravitating to post Christianity, spirituality. So what's interesting is if you look at those numbers, the 2700 people leave church every day in America. 78% of them say they still hold to some sort of spiritual faith. So most of these people leaving our not becoming atheists or, you know, stop believing in some sort of God or Jesus or whatever the majority of the four or five of them still believe something and are still clinging to some level of spirituality. And so there's a huge...that's about 2000 people every day joining this movement, in a sense. That’s a lot of people.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, that's what I feel like. Yeah. I feel like my spirituality has broadened even through this whole experience. And I'm much more inclusive of a lot more people and a lot more ways of thinking and being so that I feel like I am...not more of a spiritual person, but there's a lot more to it than meets the eye when it comes to certain beliefs.

Phil Drysdale

Yeah, and that's a very common thing that people are no longer in this nitty gritty, very narrow minded spirituality that can be very deep, but it's very, very narrow in its approach, and suddenly to be able to explore in a more broad minded way, and still go to the same depths, but to have so much more freedom to explore in depth in new ways. You know, that's a very exciting thing. And to include new people is very exciting. Yeah, that’s wonderful.

Ariana deVries

You've mentioned some myths that are associated with the journey of deconstruction. And I've seen lots of your social media posts and things about this as well. Can you give us just a couple of what these myths might be and that people should not fully realize?

Phil Drysdale

Yeah, well, I mean, one of the big ones that in our early research that actually even surprised me, because I knew this was true, but I didn't know how true it was. One myth that is common is people that deconstruct just want to stop going to church, they don't care about church, they're, you know, lazy, lukewarm, that kind of idea. As I said, most people that deconstruct are very passive about their faith, very passionate about church as a whole. Most people stay in the church for much longer than they needed to, that's for sure. Usually to the point of being asked to leave in some way, shape or form. But what's interesting is about 33 34% of people that deconstruct their faith, so change their faith, still remain in churches. And so ithis group is not to be conflated with the dechurched bmovement, which is a label that a lot of academics give to people that leave church.

Ariana deVries

Ah ok, yep.

Phil Drysdale

Because, a lot of people, they don't leave church, they still remain in church, they have just deconstructed their faith; it's their faith has radically altered, but on some level, they managed to stay in church, It might be that they find a progressive church nearby that's liberal and open enough that they can kind of get along there. Although, a lot of progressive churches are very fundamental. It's very important that people don't just mix those two worlds as well, because most progressive churches are still very fundamental in a lot of their beliefs. And that's not a big marker of deconstruction. But that's a big one, a really big one. A lot of people talk about people that deconstruct like they aren't educated enough; maybe they just haven't had it explained to them well enough. I think that's, again, proven again and again wrong. Most people that have deconstructed are usually more educated in most of these areas. Now not always. I'm sure you could get someone that’s, you know, been through a Ph. D. program in a certain area that probably knows more than most people that deconstruct in that area.

But people that deconstruct are passionately seeking and searching in their faith to try and see if most of them want to hold on to their faith. Very few want to lose their faith, you know. You talk about grief, but losing your community, your family, your friends, that's very painful and a grieving process, but losing your relationship to God; losing your your concepts of eternal security. These are massive existential crises that no one chooses to seek out. And so that's a big one as well. Most people say, “Oh, well, people are just choosing to deconstruct.” That’s very rare that someone chooses to deconstruct. Most people are like dragged kicking and screaming. They have accidentally fallen off a cliff as they were seeking after God and tried to find out more about God, trying to seek a more spiritually authentic, true way of living, and somehow they fell off the cliff, you know. [Laugher]

Ariana deVries

Right. This conversation we're having right now, it could very well be that cliff for somebody. [Laugher]

Phil Drysdale

And maybe it is, you know, it's very often that we look down and we see a thread on a rug, and we go look at that thread and we start pulling it and before long, we're holding this big bundle of threads and we're not standing on anything anymore. And that really is what deconstruction is like for some people and they're left with this huge ball of threads going well do I try and weave this back into something or just throw it away and find something else to stand on? What do I do? So it's a very uncertain process. It's not a process of certainty. But that has always been a deeply wonderful component of faith and spirituality for most people. One of the dangers when we turned the Christian religion into a religion of believing the right thing, what we did was we demonize doubt, and we glorified certainty. And so doubt became a spiritual sin and certainty became a mark of holiness. The more certain you were, the more holy you were, and the less you doubted, the more holy you were. But really, that's not true at all. Doubt is a very key component to growing in faith.

The word faith in the Bible is a Greek word pistes. It just literally means to trust. It's a much better translation actually to say trust and faith. Faith has become so warped in our English use. That's just when you read that in the Bible or early text, if you read the word faith, if you change it for trust, you'll get a better idea of what it means because we've associated faith with now an intellectual ascent. But it's really to just trust, and to trust you need, you know, sometimes you're not certain, you know, that's the component in trust is you have to trust someone, and you're not sure; you're not. And that's a very key component in having faith is to trust. And to be honest with you another component of trusting, if you're going to grow in your trust, if you're going to grow and experience new beliefs and stronger beliefs you have to be open to being wrong. Until you have some level of doubt you can't let go of what you already believe.

So what happens is those that have made certainty the mark of holiness is...what they've done is they've they've disabled themselves from growing, because they're not allowed to question what they believe already. Which is a fundamental component and growing in any area of life, any area of life. If you want to grow you have to question what you believe. You'll never grow into new things if you don't question what you already believe, and questioning is never a bad thing, right? You question something. - either you look at it and explore it and you realize, “Oh, I'm right.” And then you will just know you're right. And you've got more of a strong argument, you know more clearly how to answer different questions that we throw at you. Or, you realize you're wrong, and that's a much better position to be in, because now you don't believe something that's wrong. There's no downside to questioning.

Ariana deVries

Right. Yeah.

Phil Drysdale

It's a very bizarre thing to demonize questioning and demonize doubt. But that is where we stand for the majority of people within the institutional church is - doubt is demonized,

Ariana deVries

Right. Well, and because it's so connected to who we are as people; our faith is so connected to that.

Phil Drysdale

Yeah.

Ariana deVries

It's like I have to look at that. And I have to look at myself as a person and how I fit into this world and then that is an existential crisis for people that they are not always ready for. And...

Phil Drysdale

No. It is an existential crisis. And you cannot overstate how painful scary, traumatizing it can be. A lot of people who go through this come out the other side with religious trauma. You know, it's still a fairly new concept. It's still not made its way into the official diagnosis. But a big conversation within the world of psychology right now is RTS - Religious Tauma Syndrome - being a diagnosis within complex PTSD. And so it really is a form of traumatic stress the experiences people have been through in the church. If you think about it, trauma in the form of post traumatic stress generally comes from the belief that you are you are under threat of being attacked, hurt, harmed, killed, in some way, shape, or form. Now, a lot of times that can be linked to an emotion that your brain has misfired and thought, “Oh my gosh, I'm gonna die.” We're never really at threat, but that doesn't minimize actually how it affects. But when you look at religious trauma, it really makes sense. Well, if trauma comes from a fear that you are under threat of injury, harm or being killed, what greater threat is there that you will be burned alive for eternity if you're wrong in any area?

Ariana deVries

Oh my goodness, yeah.

Phil Drysdale

I talked to people that...I taught someone recently and they were messaging me, and they were like, “Phil, I haven't believed in an eternal conscious torment form of hell, for about 10 years.” They believe in a different variation of hell; there's a few different beliefs about hell. There are options within Christianity, and they've let go of the idea that God will burn a huge portion of the population for eternity.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Phil Drysdale

So, “I have not believed that for 10 years, and yet, frequently, probably at least three or four times a month, I wake up in a cold sweat, because I have been having night terrors that I was wrong about it and that God has sent me to hell.” They go and, “I wake up and it takes me a little while but I go, Well, I don't even believe in this.” But that's the level of trauma that is imbedded in people when we have come out with some of these toxic concepts. I would personally believe that that's a toxic picture of God and spirituality. I know many of your listeners probably disagree, and that's okay. This was a debate. There is a discussion about that.

Ariana deVries

That's what this is for - to have that discussion.

Phil Drysdale

Absolutely. And so and I'm happy to have that discussion with anyone and share resources to educate in different areas and different perspectives. But for me, the fruit that is shown there is very clear. It leads to very traumatic lives, and lives harrowed with trauma. So yeah, it's not a small undertaking. When you are initially going through that process, when you start to unravel and you start to question, you start to go, “I'm not sure what I believe anymore.” You're still sitting there thinking, but That's not okay. I have had it hammered into me my entire life in the church that I need to be a Christian. Non Christians, I know how it ends, and it doesn't go well for the people that aren't in.

Ariana deVries

Hmm...

Phil Drysdale

The people that aren't Christians, I don't want to be one of them. That's scary. And so you're left in this kind of place of going well, most people don't throw out their entire Christianity. A lot of people deconstruct and stay within a Christian construct in some way, shape or form. But they change a lot of their beliefs enough that what they grew up in as Christianity would consider them to be out, would consider them to be heretical, would consider them not to be a Christian anymore, you know. That's not the right perspective on Jesus. That's not the right perspective of the gospel. And so they they still have that voice in the back of their head from 10, 20, 30 years of hearing. This is the right belief and the people that don't have that right belief. They're in trouble.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, and that's scary. And 've seen that a lot with people in my world. And it's something that breaks my heart really for those who are on this journey and who have experienced the trauma of it; especially when they go through it by themselves, and they don't have the support and the community around them to comfort them in those moments of grief and anger and frustration. Which, I did have that and I'm so grateful for the community that I had and the family that was willing to go on that journey with us. And I'm really curious if you had that, too. Did you have the support and the community around you or did you do it alone? And how did that affect you?

Phil Drysdale

To be honest with you, I did a lot of this in a very lonely way. When I was really in the midst of my deconstruction, I was very heavily involved in the charismatic world. I was very connected to a lot of people that would have a Lots of lose to be remotely associated with someone like me. So I wasn't particularly open about my process and what I was going through with them. I was helping write curriculum for about 10,000 churches.

Ariana deVries

Wow.

Phil Drysdale

And so that was something I was like, I should probably, you know, be aware of how this would affect people; people aren't ready to go through that. And also, I would immediately lose the position I had. And so I said, “Okay, well, that's doesn't have to be coming out. So I went on this very internally, very much on my own. I was speaking in churches and conferences and ministry schools around the world. And yet, really, I came to a place where I would speak about what I believed, but I would make sure that it was in areas that would work with where they were at. It wasn't going to be...if I had changed my view I wasn’t going to talk about that, because that's not a good thing to talk about in most evangelical, charismatic churches. They're gonna be very black and white on what they believe about that topic. And so I'll talk about something else. I'll try and talk about the goodness of God and how God's always good, or how to approach hard passages in the Bible, or something like that. And, you know, something that I can maybe take them on some baby steps in the direction I'd love to see them go, but not particularly out myself to the degree that I would suddenly have no connection with anyone, no way to relate to anyone. But the problem was, it was very hard because I was never really able to be fully myself. I've always had a bit of a mask on at times. And that's a very painful process to be in. Because what happens is when you put a mask on, to be able to receive love and acceptance is when you get home and you take that mask off, you didn't receive any love and acceptance - the mask did.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Phil Drysdale

And so it can be very tiring, very exhausting. My entire income is based on donations, I do everything I do for free. And so I had some partners that gave to me monthly, and I made about $1,000 a month; I don't live off much. There was a very good chance that when I started to speak more clearly about this stuff, most of them would overnight stop giving to me. So how do I pay my bills? How do I do anything? I've not worked in a conventional IT sense, which is what was my background many years ago, I've not done that for, gosh, 15 years now. And so, you know, it was sitting there going, Oh. But, I couldn't not be myself.

Eventually I did kind of rip the band aid off and be a bit more open. But I didn't mostly do that on my own. I had a few close friends over time that came about and that was mostly through me kind of connecting with people. And in time, them just being around me and me being around them. We kind of rubbed off on each other and we kind of grew and evolved together in a way that we could share and be open. But until then, it was very painful, very tough. And even today, I've got a thriving community in my local community. I've got loads of great friends and wonderful people that I can connect with, but the churches that I've been involved with locally are not in the same place and it's not helpful for them for me to be around. They're just in a very different place. I'd love to hang out with them, but we just believe very differently. And so it's not very helpful.

I've had to disconnect myself from a lot of people that I really love and really would love to have in my life. It has been hard to disconnect and to go through that process. But I have been very lucky in creating a bit of a community here that I do connect with; my family are in very different places from each other and myself. I don't know if it's the way we brought up, the way my mom and dad brought us up, but we're just kind of cool with where people are at. It’s okay, it's not a big deal. We probably think each other crazy or whatever, but that's fine. Like it's just not a big deal at all. And so, yeah. I mean, my dad and my sister and one of my brothers are a lot more conservative kind of conventional Christian than I would be. One of my other brothers is probably a little bit less so, but we still probably...no one's as far off the deep end as me.

Ariana deVries

[Laughter]

Phil Drysdale

So, yeah, it's a dynamic that I live with, you know, but it's a bit like...I often use the example of Neo taking the red pill. I think he takes the red pill in the Matrix; not to be conflated with the red pill movement. But, when you take that pill, Neo, his first thought is like, “Dear God, do I have to live in this existence now? I would rather go back.” You don't want to live in a scummy, awful ship that's got recycled gross air, and you eat gruel every day, and you don't get to experience amazing, real life. And yet, this is real life. You don't get to go back. You could if you could try, but no one can. The amount of people that message me every week that say, “God, I wish I could go back. I wish I could just go back to church, switch off, raise my hands, sing a worship song, listen to the sermon and nod along as though I believed. I wish I could do that. I can’t do that anymore. I can't be that inauthentic.” And I think that's something that people really struggle with is when people say this is a choice, it's to make life easier, people don't care. This is a really painful, hard process that people are dragged into, I would say by God, in a sense, it's by people's pursuit of the Divine that they find themselves dragged into this. And yeah, they wish they could go back to being nice, and the ignorance is bliss component would be lovely. But you don't you can't do that you can not believe what you believe, you know?

Ariana deVries

Yeah. So then how can we come alongside instead of pushing away those asking the tough questions and who need that community of people around them on this journey?

Phil Drysdale

Yeah, I mean, it's tough if people were on this journey. I think it's helpful for them to be able to connect with each other. And that's great. And I think the challenge is finding one other when people aren't on this journey, if they are still in very much a conventional Christian kind of environment and have a very conventional Christian mindset, it's really hard you're gonna find this hard and I have so much grace for people in that place you're not you're not in a place where you need to be asking these questions what you believe works for you. I always say...people come across my Instagram page, or whatever, and they go, “Why would you say that? This is awful. Why? Don't do that. Don't say that.” You know, and I'm like, “Hey, this is not for you. This is for people that are on this journey. If you're not on the journey of what you believe works for you don't go near this.” I'm running around the world going “Don’t take Morpheus’ red pill, you're not gonna like it.” You know?

Ariana deVries

Right.

Phil Drysdale

It's only people that are seeking this out that I really would say, “okay, if you want to do this, do it, but there is no going back. You know, do you really want to take this?” So I think if that's where people are at, you're gonna find it really hard to engage with this community with these types of people. If you've got a son or a sister that is deconstructing, and you're not, and you have you don't understand it, and you can't see why you're going to really, really struggle to see why. And trying to understand is a really dangerous thing for you, because it might send you off the cliff, as well.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Phil Drysdale

So I've got every grace, and I do say, be cautious with it. Figure out how you can connect beyond just Christianity, perhaps beyond just talking about God. And about ask questions. I guarantee most people are deconstructing, if you're honest, and you're not doing it to trick, to try and manipulate, to try and control, to try and bring someone back into what you believe. If you're just asking genuine questions and you're just trying to help them feel loved and accepted and heard, that does huge quantities. People that are deconstructing don't need you to agree with them. They just want to be accepted. Generally speaking.

Maybe some would really like an agreement while you're there, but you don't have to agree with them. I would encourage you not to try and change them. The danger is...what most people try and do is they try and bring them back to Christianity as they know it, when you know this person's left that. They know what you're saying inside and out, they lived that for, you know, 10 20, 30 years. You're not going to convince them of something they already know the argument off; that they probably used on other people back in the day. So you have to accept that they, for some reason, don't find that persuasive anymore and have moved on and, and so to try and bring them back into what you believe is not going to go well. Most people to deconstruct are very much at the place where they don't want to have another authority position of authority telling them what to believe because they should believe it. They want to figure things out themselves. So try not to fall into that trap of trying to be what they're running from. I think that's a really key thing. But give them a space to lift to be heard, to share, ask questions, be honest. But if it's scary for you be open and go, Hey, this is a bit scary for me. I am quite content in my faith, and it's kind of messing with me a bit. Can we move on and talk about football? Or can we talk about, I don't know, X Factor or our kids or, you know, can we can we move on because this is too much, but maybe we can pick it up again in a week or two?

I think that's okay. No one requires you to suddenly change to your position. It's a problem with our society today. We're so dualistic, that if there's two people in a room with two views, one is right, and the other is evil. And it's like no, no, no. Maybe what is right and what's wrong, perhaps, but generally speaking, there's probably truth to both positions is probably lies and misinformation to both positions. and if we talk and learn from one another, we'll probably both grow in a healthy way. I think that's why I'd encourage.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, that's great. That's really good. Something that I've been asking myself a lot is - being on the other side, having deconstructed and learning what I want to reconstruct with - I struggle with wanting to get people started on the journey, to get them to see ways that certain beliefs may be hurting others. And that is part of the reason why I did start this podcast in the first place was in my journey of learning how to love others well, and how to have good conversations without it being good and bad, black and white, you're wrong. I'm right. How do we sit at the table and talk about these things and be gracious with each other? And not agree? But for where I have come to now, I see a lot of the ways that previous beliefs have hurt people very badly and we talked about this with the trauma that a lot of these beliefs have brought on people. So for me How can I be gracious with those who aren't on this journey? And how can I talk about things? And how can we talk about things in a way that supports those on the other side who don't want to touch this? But also, is it in a way of, maybe you could look at this a little bit because what you're doing is hurting others?

Phil Drysdale

Yeah, I think this is a real challenge. I mean, again, this goes back to just the way we we communicate as society is not maybe the most healthy right now, and hasn't been for a very long time, probably. If you've studied any form of human psychological development, which is a fascinating field to look at, there’s dozens and dozens of different models. But what's interesting is these models evolved in multiple societies around the world over the last kind of 80-90 years. They tried to track Well, how do humans develop in their minds? How do they grow psychologically, and very much they weren't talking to each other, they were independent studies. And what's interesting is some have maybe like five steps, or three steps or eight steps. But what's interesting is you take a step back, they all move in the same direction, they all follow the same trajectory. And so it was only when we started to globalize, that these communities start talking to each other and going, Oh, my God, all our mode, all our models are actually very similar, there is a very clear way that humans psychologically develop. And the reason I say that is that at certain stages, which most conventional Christians will find themselves at, it's called traditional stage, and it's a stage of being where psychologically your main drive is to feel safe, to feel certain, and to feel secure.

Ariana deVries

Yep.

Phil Drysdale

And generally speaking, you accept authority figures easier, you'll want status quo, you don't want change, you're happy to give up some of your own liberties even to make sure that everyone kind of cohesively works together well. It's a very common position that most people find themselves in the conventional church will be in. And so it's really important that as someone that's deconstructed typically you've moved on to the next stage, which is stage modern is often called, which values reason, its own self ability to regulate and to reason and to come to logical conclusions. And so it lets go of a lot of authority positions. It let's go of a...Well, someone said the Bible is the authority. Okay. Yeah, maybe. But who said that? And why? And what Bible? And which verses? And why is that verse in, and how did the Bible come about anyway? And they start questioning things first, and then they go, Okay, I'll give that some authority. But they come to that conclusion. So what you'll find is most people that are deconstructing are in that next stage. Now, what they fail to remember is that just before the change, they were in stage traditional, and they really valued feeling safe and certain and secure.

When they communicate to people that are in stage traditional, the problem is, they're not thinking first and foremost, I need to make this person feel safe, secure and certain. So I'm trying to unravel some of their beliefs; that's going to be very scary, they're going to feel uncertain, they're going to feel unsafe, they're not going to feel very secure. So how do I do it in a way that increases those components; makes them feel a little less unsafe, makes them feel a little less uncertain. That's a huge component when we're dealing with people that are in a very different psychological state.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Empathy goes a long way.

Phil Drysdale

That would be my advice. At the broadest scope, of course, nitty gritty in different relationships is going to look different. You can't just simply label someone one stage or another psychologically, it's very complex. You know, some people might be at one stage psychologically and their spiritual perspectives, but very different in the way they think about family or the way they think about work or science or different things. So it's not black and white. I think when we're talking about spirituality, be aware that most people are very rooted in their spirituality. Their driven by safety and certainty. And so trying to help those components be a part of the dynamic, you're making that person feel a little more safe when you bring up this topic. And that's a hard thing to do. I'm not saying it's easy, but it makes it easier if you can figure out ways to do that.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, and I guess that's where it's really valuable for us to remember where we've been, and what we've been through. And then to use that and be empathetic towards others and where they're at too and be like, okay, yes, right. I was there, or I can understand an aspect of what you're feeling and I will be gracious with you on this journey. Yeah.

Phil Drysdale

Yeah. It’s huge. Really, really, huge.

Ariana deVries

And I believe that we'll be deconstructing-reconstructing in countless ways for basically our entire lives, whether it's like our beliefs on tithing or race or climate change or divorce or sexuality or whatever it might be. The list is literally endless.

Phil Drysdale

It is. It is.

Ariana deVries

Can you share, just as we're starting to close, a little bit of where you've landed on your reconstruction journey? And then some words of advice and encouragement for those who are just starting on this journey?

Phil Drysdale

Sure. I think...ummm...in some ways, it has been reconstruction. In other ways, it’s been a brand new construction as well. And I think one thing that's maybe problematic at times is a lot of people that talk about reconstruction, talk about reconstructing what was deconstructed in a sense. So there's an assumption that when you deconstruct things while you're obviously going to then rebuild something that looks very similar, or at least quite similar.

Ariana deVries

That’s a good point, yep.

Phil Drysdale

To some degrees, I've definitely incorporated a lot of my past life that I've questioned and tore apart and took apart; I've brought with me. I've really liked some of that and I've brought it with me. But in other areas, actually, it's been in the push to explore spirituality and the divine in new ways that I've brought new things into the equation. You know, it's only because I deconstructed my prayer life that I started to explore maybe Eastern approaches to meditation and contemplation. And now I've definitely included some of those in my new way of living life. I wouldn't so much call that a reconstruction as a completely new construction that I would never have really probably been able to construct within the framework of Christianity I was in at the time. And so I think it's a weird quazi mix of anything and everything.

Honestly, it's a fascinating mix of what I believe, and how I believe it. I'm very, very hesitant to tell people what I believe, because I genuinely believe that for most people, what works for them will be quite unique. I really do think that the divine, that God, meets us where we are, it's why some people love worship music, and other people can sit and pray for 10 hours, and other people want to listen to sermons all day, and other people want to, you know, go to the Sunday school with the kids and look after the kids and connect with them. They feel they connect with God when they're helping the kids, you know, we're all very unique and different.

For me, I'm very slow to give a prescriptive, this was my reconstruction. This is what maybe yours might look like or should look like. Because, I do think it looks very unique for different people. And for some people, some stuff just doesn't make sense. And that's, that's okay. That's okay. And what makes sense to me might make no sense to other people. That's very common, because I'm a weird person. But I do think there is hope for reconstruction. I think with everything that gets deconstructed. We're a being; we're a species that wants meaning, that needs a narrative, that needs some sort of foundation built. So everything we take apart we look to rebuild something new to establish something new to believe in to hold on to to give us a purpose and a reason. You'll find that even most atheists feel they have purpose and reason. And so that's a component within humanity that we rebuild, and we develop that.

I think people that are going through deconstruction, people that are lonely, feeling a lot of grief, a lot of uncertainty, it's okay. It really is okay. I can say that with great confidence, having worked with thousands of people, it is okay. It's not easy, and it's not necessarily fun, but it is okay. What you're doing is not some weird anomaly; you're not alone. It does get easier. It does get better. It will probably happen again and again, like you said. You'll probably go through cycles or every time you think oh, I've arrived. I figured out what I believe and how I believe. Something happens - a big Black Lives Matter movement starts and you go...

Ariana deVries

Yeah, exactly.

Phil Drysdale

Oh crap, we’re talking about race and how is that woven into my spirituality and my faith tradition? Oh, man, I'm gonna have to start taking this apart and reconstructing. And so you're going to go through cycles and new things, but it does get easier. And I would say, if you want to talk, I am here. I love chatting with people. I love connecting with people. Send me a message on Instagram; chat with me. I would love to help. It’s what I do full time. It's all I do with my time apart from hanging out with my wife, or my friends, I just chat with people and help people and try and get resources out there. You don't have to be alone. I'm really happy to chat and to process with you. The Deconstruction Network that we mentioned earlier is a great place to go and see if there's some people in your area. It's still very new, but at least it'll be one person in your area if you join, and the next person that looks in your area will find you. And so that's a great resource as well. But yeah.

Ariana deVries

Wow. Well, thank you so much, Phil, for joining me today and sharing your heart and your journey for those on this crazy ride of deconstruction. Thank you very much.

Phil Drysdale

Yeah, of course.