Ariana deVries

Well, hello, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. I'm your host, Ariana, and today I am thrilled to be able to sit down with Dr. Rachel Kowert. Welcome, Rachel.

Dr. Rachel

Hi. Thanks for having me.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. So for those who don't know who you are, you are a psychologist studying the science of games, Research Director for Take This, a nonprofit for bringing mental health awareness, the Founder of Your Own Castle, and you currently live in Ottawa with your family. Plus, you are an avid video gamer. Does that about sum it up?

Dr. Rachel

That is a perfect summation. Yes.

Ariana deVries

You have a lot of things that you do, and it is very exciting. Yeah, so what first got you interested in psychology, and specifically the study of games?

Dr. Rachel

You know, I always wanted to do psychology, I was always really interested in understanding why people think the way they think and why people behave the way they behave. And with psychology, you really have to have an advanced degree to really do much in it. So I knew I had to go to graduate school. And when I went to get my master's, I was studying to become a therapist. And I knew immediately, I did not want to do that. Which is a little frightening when you move across the country to start a new program. But I knew that the program was going to be worthwhile, and it was going to make me a better researcher, I knew I wanted a research career right away as soon as I began that, but during my master's program, since it was a therapy training, I was doing therapy, and I continue to see parents coming in with concerns about their children playing games. So this was 2008. So World of Warcraft was very popular was like the peak popularity of this game. And they kept saying, I'm really concerned that it's doing long term social damage, because I see them alone in a room for hours. And full disclosure, I was playing so much World of Warcraft at the time, I started to get legitimately concerned like, Am I damaging myself? Like what's happening here? But at the time, there was little to no, it wasn't a field of research game studies, there was maybe two or three papers at all. So that's when I decided to take my lifelong love of video games. And also, I wanted to be able to provide this information for parents, because it was such a concern, and there was nothing out there. So yeah, I melded the two together.

Ariana deVries

That's so awesome. I feel like in another lifetime, I would have done something with psychology because I love the study of all of that and understanding how people think that's cool. And now you've joined it with video games, which is awesome. And not something that you would typically think to put together with that. But that's like what our world is right now. So it makes sense.

Dr. Rachel

I know. Right?

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Especially this year. This year is everything's online. More about that question later. But I would like to know what were some of your favorite games growing up? And now what are your favorite games now?

Dr. Rachel

Oh, it's hard to pick favourites. But, you know what? I have an older brother. So I was always Luigi. I was always player number two. So classic Mario. I remember getting a Nintendo I think I was six when we got the first Nintendo. So I played a lot of like, Mario Mario World that type of thing. I've always been a fan.

Ariana deVries

Same!

Dr. Rachel

Same? Ah, kindred spirit.

Ariana deVries

Oh, yeah.

Dr. Rachel

Um, I've always been a fan of role playing games. That's really kind of been my jam, like the games that take 100 hours to play. And they have big grand stories. Oh, yeah. good versus evil. So like, the Final Fantasies and Legend of Zelda is and those sorts.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. That's awesome. I really enjoyed Breath of the Wild. That one was a really fun one for me.

Dr. Rachel

Beautiful. That one was beautiful.

Ariana deVries

And the whole open world. That was fun. I hadn't really experienced one like that before. But I grew up loving all the Super Mario and all that kind of stuff. And I remember spending hours just huddled around the computer with my brothers and spending time doing that.

I really enjoy the immersive story the really beautiful artwork. Those are my kind of games. Right now I'm really enjoying the game Hades.

Dr. Rachel

Oh, yes. It won game of the year somewhere I just saw.

Ariana deVries

I think for the indie game, or something like that.

Dr. Rachel

Maybe that's what it was. Yeah.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. So that one. I'm really enjoying that and Spiritfarer. But those are very story based, artwork based games.

Dr. Rachel

Beautiful. Yeah, we're on the same wavelength here.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Great.

Okay, so I really want to jump in and hear about what you do. And the study that you do, especially around the stereotypes and assumptions that there are around games, because that's what this is all about. So how does the terminology and the way that we talk about it affect the way that people relate to games and those who play games? And what are some of the most blatant misconceptions out there that people just assume, are real and true?

Dr. Rachel

Yeah, great question. The stereotype of gamers is actually where I began my PhD research, because as someone who played games, I was seeing the stereotype come in popular culture. And I was like, Well, that doesn't look like me. And that doesn't sound like me and how accurate really are these stereotypes? And I've done actually a series of three studies looking at the validity of the stereotype itself. Are gamers unpopular? Are they overweight? Are they socially inept? Do they exercise less than people who don't play games? Are they less capable of communicating than people who don't play games? And it turns out, none of it holds up when you compare.

So when you look at people who play online games, who are typically viewed more negatively, and you compare them to people who only play offline games, and you compare them to people who don't play games at all, there are no significant differences across any of these categories of attractiveness and unpopularity and social ability, which was really enlightening.

Ariana deVries

So interesting. Yeah.

Dr. Rachel

Because if you see the stereotype of, you know, the basement dweller, and there's also this idea it's a teenager thing, when the average gamer is in their mid 30s.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Dr. Rachel

So none of that seems to hold weight. In terms of the misconceptions, there's a lot. [Laughter] Starting, I guess, with the stereotype that all gamers are teenagers, and they're overweight, and they have no social skills, and they have no friends. Like, none of that is true. But there's a lot of concern and misconception around the effects of games generally, like how do violent games affect people? Or how do online games affect people socially? I think there's a lot of fear and misconception and moral panic, just across the board, when it comes to the general impact that media can have, because generally broad strokes, the impact of media is so little on our thoughts and our behaviors. And in terms of long term impact. Yes, it can affect like stereotypes and perceptions, when in terms of it affecting our behavior and our cognitive abilities. Minimal, if anything. So I think that's that's a big point to make.

Ariana deVries

Which is so interesting, because a lot of people that I've talked to, and a lot of things that I read, it's like it, what makes you who you are, is how much time that you're spending on these things. I feel like there's a lot more to us than this. But we make it seem like this is make or break, which is crazy.

Dr. Rachel

For sure. I mean, even if you think about the effects of violent video games, for instance, which is always you know, the number one question. If you look at the research, it's gotten more research than any other area of game studies, I would say more 1000s of studies literally looking into it, there is no link between playing violent video games and violent behavior. There are a handful of studies that have found links between playing violent video games and showing an increase in aggression 15 minutes after.

Okay, but what that means is in a laboratory setting, they brought someone in, they had them do something like a word completion task, where they say K-I-blank-blank, and they put K-I-S-S, they put kiss. Then they play 15 minutes of a violent game. They give them the same task afterwards, and instead of kiss, they write kill, and that's considered an increase in aggression. I'm not elaborating.

Ariana deVries

Yep.

Dr. Rachel

That's literally the study.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Dr. Rachel

So what does that mean for real life behavior?

Ariana deVries

Right. Is that actually an increase of aggression, or is that just word association?

Dr. Rachel

Right! Is it just priming? Yeah, right. Exactly.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Because that was something that I was really curious to know is, is this actually a thing? Because there's a lot of fear mongering around that; that violent video games are going to turn people into terrorists and stuff like that. And it's like, really?

Dr. Rachel

Yeah.

Ariana deVries

We're putting a lot of stock into these video games.

Dr. Rachel

Yeah, no, I mean, especially like I was saying, there's so much work in this area, we can very definitively say there are not, there are not direct links between playing violent video games and violent rural behavior. And if you look at other things like previous exposure to violence, and peer delinquency and frustration, tolerance, all of these things have been very well established in the scientific literature as contributing to real world violence. But people like the moral panic, because it's an easy solution to a complex problem. Now I understand when face value, you might see the connection because it you are emulating a behavior through a controller, I can see how people would make that connection. But we're really very good at differentiating between what's real and what's not. Like, if you watch any war movie, the emotions that are evoked are completely different than the emotions that would be evoked if you were on a battlefield, right? It's the same thing.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. And do you find that playing these types of video games would actually help to, perhaps , lower stress levels or is some sort of release for people to get frustration out to play these kind of games?

Dr. Rachel

For some, yes, it can be very - I'll use a Freudian term - it can be very cathartic for some people to get out their frustration this way. And also, games generally speaking, are good stress relievers, because they're playful, and play is associated with the release of endorphins. It's also associated with a reduction in stress. So it doesn't even necessarily have to be a violent game to have the effects of effective stress relief.

Ariana deVries

Right. I totally get that, because half the time, most nights, I want to do something like that and play a game, which is chill and not stressful.

Dr. Rachel

Yeah. It can relax you, and it's really important that, and I love that you play games, because a lot of people think play is only important for children, which cannot be further from the truth. Play is so important for adults, too.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. And I think it's actually been really helpful for my marriage, too, that I play games, as well as my husband. I understand him a little bit. I understand his world. I even play some of the games that he plays; like TFT, with League of Legends and things like that. And like, I understand the terminology and the world that he's in. I understand if he has to spend some time finishing his rounds, I get it. So I don't nearly get quite as frustrated.

That's actually something that I want to ask you about is - how do we balance that? How do we work together as couples or with significant others who enjoy video games, if one really loves it, and it's a form of connection and stress relief for them, and the other doesn't understand that world at all? How do we show people that this is actually something that is helpful?

Dr. Rachel

Yes, you do exactly what you're doing.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Dr. Rachel

You show an interest in it. I mean, really. I was talking to a group of parents yesterday, and I said, "You know, I understand not everyone wants to play games. (This is just as relevant if it was your significant other). If you don't want to play games, that's totally fine. But if you just look over their shoulder and ask them, like, why do you like it? And what's happening here? Because it's important to know that a Fortnight match takes 40 minutes, right?

Ariana deVries

Mhmm. Right.

Dr. Rachel

It's important to know that so when your significant other says one more match, you don't get angry after 15 minutes have passed, because you think it should be over. So just like with any other leisure activity, if your husband or partner whatever really liked golf, you would probably ask a few questions about it and learn you know, a thing or two about golf. It's the same thing. But games, you know, games are everywhere. You can't get away from it if your spouse isn't playing them now. Your your friends, are your future children or your future children's friends or you know, it's really a cultural competence of the 21st century.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. And I wonder, too, if our understanding of video games and having a little bit more grace for that, as millennials, I'll use that buzzword. Yeah, we have a little bit more capacity for game playing. Because we do it ourselves. Like, I feel like so many of us play games. So we understand. Yeah, a little bit more gracious with our kids. But I wonder if we would fall into more of a trap of wanting to make sure that our kids are well adjusted and kind and things like that. And we kind of unconsciously take in the lives of somehow all these games that we're playing or maybe not helpful. Hmm. But But we still want to do it.

Dr. Rachel

Yeah, the games are helpful, though. If you look at the study of games, and the effects of games as a whole, so we've been selling them for maybe 20 years or so now, generally speaking, the effects are more positive than negative. And at the very least, they're neutral. So in terms of how they're going to impact our behavior, they're not going to make us violent, they're not going to reduce our compassion for other people, or desensitize us to violence, they're not going to atrophy, your social skills. But there's a lot of potential for social connection, for playing and communicating. Like I said, with a cultural competency, like your kids playing with other kids is also providing them with this shared experience that they can then take into school and talk about, oh, I played Hades this weekend. Oh, me, too. Oh, what happened? You know, it's part of our common vernacular. And I think it's really important to understand that there is, especially social value, especially over the last year, as games are literally the last thing we can do. That's playful, social, and interactive. Six feet away from each other.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Can you share a little bit more about that aspect of it of it actually being a social connection, a way of actually having community because that's something that people have asked a lot, too - Is it actually a healthy way to have community?

Dr. Rachel

Oh, absolutely. So I think that the rules kind of differ based on the age of your children. So I know you and I both have young children. So my daughter is six and she loves Minecraft. So we have a Minecraft realm. That's her and her two neighborhood friends who she cannot normally play with because we're in lockdown. So for her the only way she can still play with them is to connect to this Minecraft realm and build and be cooperative or be competitive. And these are the things that you can't have from a Zoom conversation, right? You can't immerse yourself into a world where you're like, let's collaborate and build, or work together to kill a dragon.

These kind of experiences are really important, because we have them in organized sports. We have them in drama club, which none of these things are happening now. So yeah, we have them in Minecraft.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Dr. Rachel

For older children, again, social community is still important. But I understand like, as adolescents become older, you have to loosen this strings a little bit in terms of letting them a bit more into the wild of the online world. And those are different considerations. Stranger Danger as a consideration, toxic harassment, and that sort of thing is also a consideration to be aware of. But gaming communities can be fantastic places. There's a statistic that something like 65% of people who play games say their online friends are as good or better than their real world friends. And by that they mean they can share things with them, they can self disclose to them, they can feel a sense of connection with them. And that's really important.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. You mentioned their toxic harassment and toxic relationship stuff there. I'd like to talk more about that. Because that's something that is a little bit unfortunate with the online world, and especially for females in the online gaming communities. So how do we handle that? What do we do about it? Because, I mean, guys alone, get a bad rap for being gamers. But then there's girls who also enjoy gaming, and then they want to be a part of these communities, and it's not a safe place for them. So what do we do?

Dr. Rachel

Yeah, it's hard. You know, you read in the research about how lots of female players don't use voice chat, for instance, because they know that that's inviting some kind of harassment. There's a few things to note here. One, is to be aware that it happens. So for instance, if you have children, male or female, talk with them about - you may see this and you may experience this, and this is not okay - because people feel that there are no repercussions on the internet, they will feel more inclined to behave in ways they wouldn't behave face to face. I always say report it. There's always reporting tools in the game or on the console.

And secondly, if we want to do a research based, evidence based solution, which is kind of where I always kind of lead down towards, they found that the best way to reduce the behavior in the game is to have a third party ally standing up for you. So it's really like if you see something, say something. If I'm being harassed by a male and another male, someone of a similar social status, says, "Hey, man, that's not cool". That's actually the most effective way to stop the behavior from happening. So if you have a son or daughter, you let them know. It' s not okay. Don't act that way on the internet. If you wouldn't act that way, in real life, you shouldn't act that way in real life, either, report it and be an active ally. Don't just walk past if you see it happening.

Ariana deVries

Mm hmm. Those are really good points and something that I want my daughter to be aware of when she's playing games, too, because she loves games, just like her parents. And yeah, we want her to be safe online, because that's what our world is right now.

Dr. Rachel

Exactly. Exactly. I have a daughter too. So I understand. Yeah.

Ariana deVries

Do you feel like because there is this stigma that you can't actually make a living from playing video games that it's hard for people to actually want to do stuff with it? Because it's like, this is something that I love, but how can I actually do anything with this? I have to do something that's a "real job". So what do we do with that? Where do we place that? I don't even know.

Dr. Rachel

Well, there's jobs in the video gaming industry, right? So you can get a career in creating games, which playing games gives you some, you know, some experience at least of the playtesting side of games. There's also been a trend recently for actually using your gaming experience on your resume. So like IBM has famously put out an advert being like do you lead raids in an MMO RPGs. That's developing leadership skills. Tell us about it. Tell us how you lead these groups of diverse people through something complicated to success. So there are some transferable skills that you can get from gaming and take into the real world. And also, I think it's like 20 Five don't quote me on that more than two dozen universities offer eSports scholarships now.

Ariana deVries

Oh wow. That's cool. I mean, eSports are really taking off now. And this year has been a great year for eSports, because that's the one sport that you can really do still.

Dr. Rachel

Honestly, I'm surprised. You and I are both in the Great White north. We're both in Canada and I have been seeing that they're still playing organized football, south of the border, which is shocking to me, because when COVID quarantine started, I did a couple interviews saying like, this is the year for eSports because surely all of the organized sports will be canceled. They weren't all canceled. But eSports is still thriving.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Oh, man.

I've heard the term before. Slow media.

Dr. Rachel

Okay.

Ariana deVries

In regards to games that require you to think and process through your decisions, or even watching things like YouTube videos about crafting or Lego building, or like things like that, versus just watching shows or watching TV, watching movies. Have you heard this used much in your circles? Or in your research? And how would that be more beneficial? or less? Or is it the same kind of retaining of screen time that we are told is so bad?

Dr. Rachel

You know, the ominous screen time catch all term that we see. I haven't actually heard that term. But I will speak to the nebulous screen time term. In the research field, we don't like that, because not all screen time is created equal. And you know, everyone wants to stick a number. Everyone wants a magic number, how much screen time should my child have? And the American pediatric society I think says two hours. Is that two hours of Skyping with Grandma? Is that two hours of watching YouTube? Does that count as the four hours of virtual school my child now has every day?

So for me, it's not about a magic number. It's about balance. So our screen shouldn't be every activity that your child does during the day. Obviously, my child has more screen time now because they have online school. That doesn't mean they don't ever play Minecraft now, they still also play Minecraft. And that's also looking at a screen but we also do crafting, or we also go for walk outside. And it's just about having a balance. I don't think there's a magic number. I think everyone knows their child much better than I know their child. And they know how much is too much for them. They should be moving their body. They should be hydrating, they should be doing multiple things. But you know, if they also really like Lego videos, I have a three year old son who loves the Lego videos. We watch a lot of Lego videos.

Ariana deVries

So does my daughter. Oh man. Yeah. She will be like, "Mom, can I watch my shows?" And then she just watches Lego videos.

Dr. Rachel

Yep.

Ariana deVries

Like, okay, great. But then she actually has a huge pile of Lego that she'll then go and build with which is great.

Dr. Rachel

Which is great, because she's inspired. You know, my daughter watches a lot of play through videos; Minecraft people building things in Minecraft.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Dr. Rachel

And then she goes in, and she tries to recreate it. That's all.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. It's inspiring for them.

Dr. Rachel

Yeah. Especially when, I don't even know where to begin with half of these things.

Ariana deVries

I mean, I watch tutorials. So then why can't my kid watch tutorials? Right?

Dr. Rachel

Right. I mean, I love a good stream on Twitch as much as the next person. Yeah.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, totally. And I think something that I try to be aware of too, in regards to the whole nebulous screentime is the feeling of parent shaming that can sometimes come with it, or even just shaming for whoever is on screens or playing their games and spending a lot of time doing that. And it's like, oh, my kid just automatically regulates himself and just puts it away. I was like, my kid would never do that. She would stay on all day long, basically, until she was like, "I'm hungry".

Dr. Rachel

Right. Yeah.

Ariana deVries

And so, yeah. I just, I want people to also know that it's okay either way, and that's what you're saying too, is you know your kid best. There's not some formula and some standard that is right.

Dr. Rachel

Absolutely, absolutely. And generally speaking, kids are not good at self regulating themselves. Generally speaking. Sometimes if my daughter gets bored, fine, she'll turn it off and she'll go do something else. But if she's playing Minecraft, forget it. She's there until until I tell her to get off.

What I like to tell parents is be aware that even through young adulthood, your ability to self regulate time is not great. And it's magnified by the fact that games are meant to be immersive experiences. And they put you in what we call a state of flow. So the challenge of the game meets the skill of the player. And when you have that balance in a well designed game - that's what happens when you play the Sims for an hour, and you look up and five hours went by - that's the sense of flow. You lose the sense of time and space, it's just the phenomenon.

So if you tell your child, you can play for an hour, they're not going to know when an hour is out, they actually are incapable of knowing. So put a clock where they can see it, set an egg timer, remind them 10 minutes, five minutes, two minutes, versus just saying an hour is up and taking it away, because they're just not capable of processing that.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Now, is there a difference between the flow when it comes to games and being immersive versus actually addictive games? And is there even a such thing as an addictive game - based on the rewards that you can get, or loot, or things like that, which keep you coming back to keep playing? What's the difference?

Dr. Rachel

Great question. So I have a YouTube channel where I put out videos every week about the psychology of games, and the one I did most recently was about video gaming disorder. So I go on a 15 minute rant, I'll spare you from that. But if you're interested in learning more, I do have a long video.

Ariana deVries

What is it called?

Dr. Rachel

Oh, it's called Psychgeist. So, P-S-Y-C-H-G-E-I-S-T. Psychgeist. So, games are designed to be engaging, filled reward system, the achievement systems, loot boxes, all of that stuff is designed to keep you engaged. And that's what makes it a good game. Now, the line between gaming addiction and gaming disorder, first of all, it is something formally recognized by the World Health Organization, but not the American Psychiatric Association, which is the first important distinction to make. The American Psychiatric Association has it listed in the back of their diagnostic manual, as something that requires more research, like they're not confident that in and of itself, it should stand alone as a unique disorder.

Now scholars in the field are very much of that position, that there is not enough research to say there's something uniquely, quote unquote, addicting about games, because if we look at the DSM, as it stands now, the diagnostic manual, there's only one behavioral addiction in there, that's gambling addiction. So gaming addiction would beat out sex addiction, or work addiction, or these other things that have decades of research and establish treatment programs. So for us, that seems a bit strange and perhaps, driven by this fear kind of this moral panic in and around games. So there's no evidence to suggest there's something unique about games, first of all.

Now, some people play games in a problematic way. That is without question. For some people, games can lead to problems. So if playing games...I take that back. Now playing games can lead to problems. From the outside in, it looks like games are the source of the problem.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Dr. Rachel

But what seems much more likely is that games have become a maladaptive coping strategy for something else underlying whether it be depression, or anxiety, or I don't know, environmental stress from a global pandemic, you know, a lot of things. But there's nothing to suggest that games themselves are the are the source of the issue. But if you're concerned about someone's game playing, if they're experiencing detrimental consequences in all areas of their lives, physical, social, occupational, for an extended period of time, it would be worth consulting a mental health professional, but keeping in mind that what you might actually be looking to treat, it's something like depression, or anxiety, or stress, stress management or something like that.

Ariana deVries

Right. But the easiest thing to see is the amount of time that we're playing games.

Dr. Rachel

And from the outside in again, it's easy to see that and and as frustrated parents. I understand. Yeah, I need to just be like it's the games. But the research doesn't support that.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. But that is helpful to know. So we can be aware of other things that may be going on beneath the surface. And this may be how it's manifesting, or how it's being communicated to us.

Dr. Rachel

Yes, yes. And there's the thing and it is a very important distinction, because there are these gaming addiction centers that you see popping up, but they're very much based on substance abuse. So if you say, You're addicted to games, I'm taking to one of these places. The first thing they do is they take the games away. Well the game is might be their coping strategy. And now you've taken away that tool, and they're not treating what's underlying their cause. They're treating the games as the source of the problem and that could be a problem.

Ariana deVries

Right. Yeah. And why a lot of parents, I think, don't fully understand why their kid doesn't seem to be getting better once the games are gone.

Dr. Rachel

Right.

Ariana deVries

In fact, a lot of times I think they get worse. Right?

Dr. Rachel

Right!

Ariana deVries

Then they lash out more. Because now...

Dr. Rachel

That was their strategy to feel less lonely or less anxious, or whatever it might be.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Dr. Rachel

I want it to be clear that some people do use games in problematic ways. But there really is...

Ariana deVries

But, that's like everything.

Dr. Rachel

Exactly. Like the fact that they want to put it in there before sex addiction, to me is ridiculous, because sex is a key as clinically established programs to treat it. And that's not even in the DSM. And there's a lot of speculation that the World Health Organization was maybe pressured into fitting it in really quick into their diagnostic manual.

Ariana deVries

Do you think that is because of what a lot of the video games look like? Like the artwork, and even like, really scantily clad women and stuff like that? It's almost a way to present pornographic images to young guys.

Dr. Rachel

Well, yeah. So that's a whole other topic. We can't...I mean, I did a study at the University of Muenster, where we looked at a theory called Cultivation Theory, which is the idea that when you are consuming media, you are cultivating the ideas, and the ideals being portrayed to you and integrating it into who you are. And the hypothesis was by playing these kinds of games with scantily clad women, and women as damsels in distress, that you were cultivating sexist and misogynistic ideas about women and the roles that women play, and that perhaps is feeding into this toxic gamer culture and is the way that women are harassed. Turns out there's zero evidence for that.

Ariana deVries

Okay!

Dr. Rachel

So that goes back to what I'm saying about the way that medium patching is very minimal, because on the surface, again, I can see how someone would think that might be the case, but scientifically, it is not supported.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Which, I think, also is something that would feed into fear, specifically, a mother's fear for their kids, when the artwork looks like this.

Dr. Rachel

It's really important for parents to be aware of what their child is consuming.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Dr. Rachel

It's another reason to look over their shoulder. I mean, I've seen, back when people went into stores, where you go into game stores and you see parents buying M rated games. M for Mature rated games for their young children. And it can either be violent content, or it could be at scantily clad women, sexualized content, they're not even looking at it. And they're just buying it because their child said they wanted it. You want to be aware of the content your child is consuming. You need to first look at what the ratings are. But also look over their shoulder, because I can tell you, I wouldn't want my eight year old son playing what is that volleyball game, Dead or Alive? You know, the girls are in like bikinis and they have abnormal proportions. I would not want my eight year old playing that game.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Dr. Rachel

There is a model I developed. A model talking about, what I was proposing that cultivation theory might be a thing, but part of it is the industry is male dominated, right? There's not too many female protagonists. And over time, it has become kind of like an opportunity to create fantastical, unrealistic female characters that are exciting to the people who are involved.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Which is why I loved watching the game. I didn't even play it. I watched my husband play through the whole thing of Horizon Zero Dawn. And that game was so great to just watch.

Dr. Rachel

Yeah, yeah.

Ariana deVries

When's the next one coming out so I can just watch you play? [Laughter]

Dr. Rachel

Yeah, exactly. Oh, I also very much like watching other people play games. A lot of people are like, weirded out by Twitch. Why would you watch other people play games? Like, yeah, it's just really entertaining to watch.

Ariana deVries

So from all of research and experience that you've done, over the years, can you kind of give an overall snapshot of what is the most valuable part of playing games?

Dr. Rachel

Oh that's hard, the most valuable. I think, for me, what was the most surprising perhaps to find in terms of positive impact of game playing? Was the amount of unintentional learning that happens when you play games? So yeah, games that aren't designed. I mean, we might be of a similar generation when I was younger. I remember Math Blaster, right?

Ariana deVries

Yes.

Dr. Rachel

Yes. Okay, that's equations on a screen. That's not fun. But games today, if you look at games like Civilization, okay, that's not created to be an educational game, but you're learning about historical world leaders. You are learning about the wonders of the world. World of Warcraft, again, it's always a great example because it's such a diverse game. You're learning about time management and leadership skills and resource management. And you are acquiring all these skills and all these, all this knowledge, unintentionally, because the game wasn't developed to teach you these things. And it's really fascinating to me how much really you can learn from games. But you know, back when books came out, there was panic about that too, or crossword puzzles, there was moral panic that women might become literate, because they're staying at home doing crossword puzzles. So this is just like the latest thing in a long line of 'we should be afraid'. But there's also a lot of good. There's a lot of good. They're not perfect, but there's a lot of good in there.

Ariana deVries

Totally. As you think through all of your gaming life and your psychology life and all of that. What kind of words of encouragement would you offer to parents, to spouses, to kids, to gamers, and encourage them that they're doing a good thing and that they're okay.

Dr. Rachel

Yes. To parents, it's okay, that your child wants to play a little more Minecraft these days. Because it is their last opportunity to be engaging with their with their peer group, which is so important right now.

For parents and spouses. You know, my husband used to play a mobile game, and I can't remember the life me what it was called, but he was playing it all the time. And I remember somebody asked me like, what do you do when your spouse plays a lot of mobile games, and you can't get them off? I'm like, you tell me, I don't know. But I think that showing interest in the activity as a parent to a child, or as a spouse, to another spouse can really go a long way in helping to understand the role that games are playing in our lives. So I think a lot of people see it as like frivolous play, that's not meaningful. And it's not important and really can be like, this is the only way I can connect with the people who I used to live to live by in another state. Or when I play this game, I feel empowered, because I'm able to accomplish really complex things. And I think just by showing a little bit of interest, you'll learn a whole lot about the good that there is, in this community.

Again, it's not perfect. There's toxicity and there's harassment and there's there's definitely could be overused. And you have to think about things like eye strain and sedentary lifestyle. And it shouldn't be everything that you do. But you know, you can get an Esports scholarship. Now there's billions of dollars in the video game industry. There's there's plenty of jobs in that industry for kids when they grow up. So it's not all doom and gloom.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Which is good.

Dr. Rachel

Yes.

Ariana deVries

I have asked you almost all the questions that are on my list. You just like answered them so well.

Dr. Rachel

Oh, good!

Ariana deVries

And efficiently! Wow, this is great. We're even under an hour, so I'm like, "Well, what else can I ask you? What else am I interested about?"

Dr. Rachel

I don't know. Ask me anything.

Ariana deVries

I am actually curious. Is there a difference between video games and board games or physical games? And how does that translate into life?

Dr. Rachel

Yeah, that's a great question. I haven't extensively studied board games. But I did have a colleague when I was doing my PhD who did a comparison between role playing in board games and role playing video games. As far as I know, there's not really any significant differences. Obviously, video games were very much inspired by board games. And board games are also great tools for teaching strategy. And, and there's all these unintentional learning outcomes that we were talking about in relation to video games. I think video games, in some ways, especially now for the younger generation are more engaging, because it's on a screen, and everybody loves screens, and they just want to look at them and, and that sort of thing.

But if you're a parent concerned that your child is looking at too much screens, maybe now that we're doing online learning as well, pivoting to board games might be a really great bridge of the gap between Okay, maybe let's get off of the computer for a little bit, and play, you know, Settlers of Catan, or whatever your jam is for your game night. Because again, it's playful, it's collaborative, it's competitive and can have all the same benefits. And maybe if you're a parent or a spouse who's not super into video games, maybe board games might be something you can all do together. And it would still kind of check the same boxes, because apparently a lot of times say I want to take my child's interest and pivot into something in the quote unquote, real world, which I hate that phrase. Well, yeah. And board games is a great way to do that.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Do you think that there is a generational difference between how we view gaming?

Dr. Rachel

Yes.

Ariana deVries

A leading question, maybe? Because I've seen that with, like our parents, not fully understanding to the same degree that we do. But I can even see that for the generation that's under me and coming up and how they see video games. They're growing up with ones that are different than I did.

Dr. Rachel

Well, yes. They have Breath of the Wild. Do you remember the original Zelda? Come on.

Ariana deVries

Oh geez. Yeah. I feel like they have more in the world of community gaming, too.

Dr. Rachel

Yes, for sure. We've waited a long time for online gaming communities. Yeah.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. So where do you see like the generational differences in the gaming world?

Dr. Rachel

Yeah. I think our generation is raising children that are more open to gaming, I would say, as a leisure activity. I mean, I had a game console from a very young age. My parents never ever played with me. And I know that, you know, if we played for too many hours, they'd be like, get off. And but if I played for the same amount of hours playing risk, you know, they would never tell me to stop. So there's like a difference and understanding of the role and what games are really as a form of entertainment. I think that games are becoming more accepted. As more generations come up. But you know, the next moral panic is just around the corner. Don't you worry, as soon as VR and AR become affordable for everyone? The blame is gonna get shifted there.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Dr. Rachel

I mean, the cycle continues.

Ariana deVries

Right. Whole other ball game. Whole other world of stuff to be scared of.

Dr. Rachel

Exactly! You see! A whole other ballgame. See? See? It's the moral panic. And it's natural. It's natural to have that reaction towards the unknown. The difference that we have here with games is that we've been studying them now for half a century. We know really well what they can and what they cannot do. So the moral panic sustaining now is a bit silly. It was understandable at the beginning to have these fears because it was the fear of the unknown.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. And so what would you say to somebody then, who still feels so strongly about it being a moral issue? And the panic that comes with that and feeling like, I need to believe what my gut is telling me, and I don't care what other people are saying. This is what I still think is really bad. What do we do with that? How do we be in relationship with people like that who were saying things very differently?

Dr. Rachel

I would send them to my YouTube channel, because I also have a video on moral panic, which I think is my most watched video for that exact reason. But secondly, you know your family best. I'm not going to tell you how to raise your family. I'm not going to tell you if your child should have video games or not. I will tell you what the research says in terms of its uses and effects. You can raise a perfectly wonderful human who's never played a video game, I have no doubt.

But I will also say, in this world, they will be exposed to that technology at some point. So having a base understanding of what they can and cannot do - what the content is like - would be advantageous as a parent, regardless of whether you have it in your house or not. Because even if you don't have it in your house, they're gonna have somebody else's house, or they're gonna see it related to in pop culture, and it's really just part of the 21st century common culture. So understanding at least a little bit, I think as a parent, will give you some peace of mind. But whether or not you decide to let your children play or not, that's totally up to you.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, that's really good. So as we bring this official part to a close, do you have any final words of wisdom to offer the parents, but even more so, the single people who are playing their games and they want to find connection, but they also want to know if they're okay in what they're doing?

Dr. Rachel

Yeah. Games are fun. I mean, when did fun not become an important thing to talk about? Games are fun. They're great, and they're a great way to socialize. They're a great way to open conversation; they become a topic of conversation. I've met some lifelong friends - who I've never met in real life - through online games who I would consider my dearest, dearest friends.

Of course, consider things like stranger danger, harassment, inappropriate content, and all that stuff. If you are the parent of a young minor - not even younger children - it's important for teenagers, too. But you're gonna be okay. When we look at all the research - and we've done a lot of it - it's more good than bad. And at the very least neutral. So you're gonna be okay.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Rachel. I really appreciate the work that you've put into learning about this and joining your passion with the research and showing us that the world in this regard does not have to be a scary place. And it can be something that we can love.

Dr. Rachel

Yes, absolutely. Thank you for having me. I'm always happy to spread the good word.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai