Ariana deVries

So, Scott, welcome to the podcast today.

Scott deVries

Thank you.

Ariana deVries

Yes, we have had many, many conversations about this. And it's now here. The coronavirus is in North America - Kitchener, Ontario.

Scott deVries

Finally, it's like it's been months since we've been talking about this. It hasn't been quite that long, but quite a while. So it's weird that it's finally here.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Toilet paper is basically flying off the shelves. People are in super panic mode. Yikes.

Scott deVries

Yeah. The toilet paper one's fun for me, because it's like people in prices are going to panic about something. And to me, it's like this weird thing about toilet paper is this easy. It's an easy thing to latch on to. But it's also an easy way for us to villainize, in some ways, the other where it's like somebody out there is just hoarding toilet paper; how dare they. It's a way for us to feel a bit superior, in some ways, that our response is, you know, more measured and more thinking about others. But the good thing about toilet paper, as well, is that it is a necessity. But it's not like we can’t still function without it. I much prefer a run on toilet paper over a run on certain types of medicine or certain types of food that people need. So, in some ways, this is actually the best case scenario.

Ariana deVries

Right. Because then those things are still available for the people who need it.

Scott deVries

That's right.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. So what has been your thought process leading up to this point? Why did you decide, okay, I need to say something- I need to do something about this? Can I be on your podcast, please? Why did you decide to do that?

Scott deVries

Well, I mean, there's a lot of misinformation going around. And a lot of this type of thing catches everyone by surprise. That's one of the natures of pandemic is that you're dealing with exponential math. Which, if you don't know, think of it as kind of like a curve, right? So you take a graph and it's like, for a long time, it's very flat and all of a sudden it shoots up and stick of if you've seen the world population or other things like that, that sort of thing. And viruses the same where suddenly it just feels like, you know, why is everything closing now all of a sudden, once or twice, the news just inundated. And so for many of us, it's like, Where did this come from? And we have no idea how to respond or what it all means.

I mean, I've been following this since the beginning of January, where there was a break in Wuhan as we know, just because, I mean, I'm one of those weird people that likes reading everything they find. At first, I was like, We've been through a few pandemics recently in the last 10 years; Ebola, Zika H1N1. We've also been through SARS earlier than that. So I wasn't too concerned initially, because it didn't seem like the numbers were going to take off. But within a few weeks, it was very obvious that this was going to get really bad really fast. I was very concerned because it didn't seem like we suddenly were taking it seriously. There's this tendency for us, I think, in North America to assume that everything is just going to be fine no matter what. And in some ways, that's been a no case situation, because we haven't really been affected by too many things that are happened in the world. So we're used to, you know, we read the news, we talk about politics, we talk about other issues. We talked about these things as if they're never going to affect us...

Ariana deVries

...and we feel invincible, so to speak.

Scott deVries

Very much. So. Yeah. And one of the challenges I have seen with this virus is that it was coming to our shores really, really fast within, now obviously we know, weeks. But I was afraid that that tendency would continue. And then we just assumed that if we can't feel if we can't see something, it's not really there. So I was a bit concerned earlier, especially the last week or two where there was not a lot of response. And so the events of the last couple of days have actually given me quite a bit of hope. Because before then it was I have this uncanny and annoying ability to live a little bit in the future. Of course, we don't know the future. But I'm always processing all the different directions that things can go. And I didn't like a lot of the scenarios that were coming up. And so it was a little bit concerning to me. But now that we are taking this seriously, a lot of people are slipping into fear and panic mode. And for me, it's actually the reverse where I'm actually getting more hopeful by the day.

Ariana deVries

Right, because you kind of dove into the fear mode earlier than everybody else, because you kind of live in that space because of your eye to the future a little bit more than other people; maybe as a way of protecting yourself and protecting your family. Right?

Scott deVries

Mm hmm. Yeah, the fear thing is really interesting to me, because I mean, I live, most people live, with some sort of fear that they either push down or hide away about something. And for me, my fear is always in the future. And it's always on a global scale. So the number of different issues that have come up...so something like this fits into that really easily where you have, you know, fear of a global pandemic, fear of social unrest and other things that spin off of that.

Ariana deVries

So how have you fought against that fear? How have you dealt with the fear that this virus, this pandemic presents?

Scott deVries

To me fear...we tend to give fear a little bit of a bad rap, especially in faith circles, where we talk about how fear is, in many ways, the enemy. And again, in North America, we're so used to nothing going wrong on a big scale that we actually recognize now that fear, when the crisis happens, fear is actually the bad guy; fear is the enemy. And if we get rid of fear, then we win and we triumph over whatever it is. But in many parts of the world, fear is actually very important. Throughout history, and even now today, when a crisis hits, if you put away fear, you end up dying or making bad decisions.

Ariana deVries

Also, it’s a survival instinct.

Scott deVries

Correct. In many ways, I believe that fear can be a gift; I consider it a lot like anger, where it can be used incorrectly. But to say that all anger is bad, I wouldn't agree with. And fear is exactly the same way. So in a situation like this fear, a little bit of fear, is a great motivator to think, to imagine, to look out and say, “Okay, what if this could happen?” And it prompts you to do something.

Ariana deVries

Well, yeah, because I know for me, we've talked about this a bunch already, but I know for me, I was scared to even really touch this topic. Because, well, for one, it felt very far away. And it's kind of surreal. Like, that's not gonna happen, there's not going to be some crazy virus that's going to take over the world. Like, what? And then I saw how much it meant to you. And I saw how much you were wrestling with it. And the fear and the anxiety that that was bringing up for you. And then I realized, Okay, wait. I have to, I have to face this fear in order to better help the people in my world.

Scott deVries

Mm hmm.

Ariana deVries

In order to be able to function to my full capacity. I actually have to go through this fear and not be afraid of fear.

Scott deVries

Exactly. In many ways. It's like we have to realize that when we try to clamp down on fear, put it away, in some ways, we're actually being really selfish, because a lot of times in a situation like where we're at, we need to go and we need to see the truth for what it is. We just see the truth that our lives are going to be upended for an indeterminate amount of time p, that we're going to have to change our lifestyle, at least temporarily, potentially permanently, in some ways that we're going to have to adjust the way that we look at even some concepts of faith. And once we step through that fear, it turns into something else, it turns into hope and it turns into solidarity and a little bit of stoicism; where, you know, this is happening, this is happening for real. And then it turns into getting past my own fear so that I can assist others, especially for those of us who can see things a bit clearer, but also in the faith community. It's our responsibility to deal with this first so that then we can come up alongside others who don't have any way of dealing with the fear that comes.

Ariana deVries

Right. So then how do you think that we can be gracious towards others who deal with their fear in ways that are different than us that we maybe don't fully understand? Because I know that you were very kind to me. But you also pushed me to process things that I wasn't necessarily ready for; at least I didn't think I was. But you knew that I was, because you know me. So how can we, yeah, how can we love others and help them through the fear of what this presents?

Scott deVries

Yeah. I wouldn't consider myself to be an expert in any way on this. One of the challenges is that we all respond differently in crisis. Some of us just get down to work. Some of us think long and hard. And so in order to be gracious to one another, we have to give each other the space to process in our own way. But the challenge, as well, is that there's a reality of what's coming and what is already here that sometimes doesn't give people the time they need to process through stuff.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Scott deVries

That's the challenge. And so it's a real balancing act of making sure that people know what's happening for real, not couching it. But then allowing them to then say, “Okay, what next?” And helping people to then find their place in that.

Ariana deVries

So is it less about helping other people through their fear? And like, for you, you've gone through that already. For me, I'm in a process of going through that. I feel like I am in a good place with that right now. Is it less about the other people's fear and more about, “Okay, How do I help? How do I practically help you?” Not so much because, like, when you feel like you're in a safe place, then you are better able to help others? Not that we're safe now, but that feeling of I'm safe because I know the numbers, I know where this is going, I've seen the future - quote unquote - I've mapped it out?

Scott deVries

I think safety, looking for safety, is actually where it can go wrong. Actually, if you look at stories of heroic efforts throughout history, they didn't come from a place of safety. They came from a place of acceptance; where it's here is where I'm at, and this is the way the world is at this particular moment. And I'm going to lean into courage and I'm going to lean into acceptance of what's happening. And I'm just gonna be the person that I know that I am on the inside.

Ariana deVries

So it's not about overcoming the fear.

Scott deVries

I don't think so at all.

Ariana deVries

Learning to live with it.

Scott deVries

In many ways, that's exactly right. Allowing it to push you to be more of you in a situation.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Scott deVries

So yeah, because I'm afraid (and there’s that fear thing again) that if we put our heads in the sand, and retreat from fear, because in a reality of a situation like this you can either try to hide your fear - and so then you go off grid, whether it's like off the internet, you go off...you don't listen to news, you don't listen to people around you, and you kind of isolate yourself, at least mentally - then there's a decent chance that reality will come to your doorstep anyways.

Ariana deVries

It'll be even more shocking.

Scott deVries

Correct. You and I were I'm watching something and one of the quotes we heard was “If only ignorance was the best form of defense against danger”. Unfortunately, at this point, ignorance is not going to save us. Well, what is going to save us is all of us coming together, facing what's happening, looking at the reality of it and then saying, “Hey, how and what do we do about this?

Ariana deVries

Maybe expand a little bit more on why is it important for us to actually socially distance ourself from each other? Because we say, we can't have our kids going to school. We say we can't be going to church. We say all sports are canceled. Why? Why is this such a big deal?

Scott deVries

So social distancing; what is it? It's essentially, the whole goal of social distancing is to mitigate the spread of a virus. Without social distancing when you have is at this point or the virus is a Think of it as every person will infect two to three others. And if you do, if you know math, or you are part of a pyramid scheme, you'll notice that that quickly gets out of hand really fast. In fact, if I do the math correctly, I believe that if that happens, all of Canada, every single person gets infected. Within, I think, three weeks, I could be wrong on that; I don't have the math on me. Obviously, that doesn't happen in real life, but it's close. And so you'll see a lot of countries without social distancing. The cases just suddenly jump up dramatically. And with a virus like this, you have a round 2% fatality rate, which means two out of every hundred people will die. Now that rate is mostly skewed, at this point, towards elderly; so 70 plus. Which means that we don't all feel like we're scared of this thing. And that's fine. But there are some other challenging statistics that come with this virus. And that is 60% of people don't have any symptoms really at all, or they have mild symptoms. And it doesn't sound like a scary statistic.

But that means 40% of people do have symptoms and problematic ones. And you have around 10 to 15% of people. And sometimes a bit more in some countries where these people need to be hospitalized. So if you do the math, if you do the math, Canada has 36 odd million people in the country, and you take 10 to 15% of that, that's around 4 to 5 million people. And if all those people need to be hospitalized at once, we do not have the capability in any way to deal with that. We have very, very few beds for people in that condition compared to that number. So, social distancing is all about - can we reduce the amount of people that have the virus in one specific instance? So that when, not if, but when people need to go to the hospital, when they need to be hooked up to an oxygen, or to a ventilator to help them breathe mechanically, that those things are available to them.

Ariana deVries

Right, so how do we know when we need to go to the hospital? And when we need to just call it ourselves and self isolate?

Scott deVries

Great question. Self isolation happens when you have mild symptoms, or none at all. If you've been in contact with anybody with a confirmed case of the virus, you need to self isolate. The median time for how contagious you are at this point is five days. Now it can be anywhere from 2 to 14 days. Which is a huge number, a huge difference. And there is some studies at this point that show that you can be contagious after you show symptoms. So after the symptoms have subsided. But what happens when your symptoms get worse? You need to call your doctor - not go to the ER - call your doctor. The ER is probably the most dangerous place you can go to, because it's going to be full of other people that may or may not have the virus. So in order to not overwhelm and allow the ER room to be used for people who have actual emergencies, you want to call your doctor who will then give you an okay or no for going to the hospital. That would be the procedure that's recommended by public health.

Ariana deVries

There have been a couple people, too, who have said to me, “Well, don't I want to get sick so that I build up immunity to this? So that it's not as big of a deal?” Is that actually a good idea? Is that actually a legit thing to do or want to to?

Scott deVries

Logically, for us logical thinkers, it actually makes sense to catch the virus immediately, because there is room in hospitals and other places right now. That is obviously a very selfish and weird way of thinking. And so I wouldn't suggest that, actually. The other thing is you're taking a little bit of a chance because the amount of medical understanding of this virus is still growing. And so, catching it later, buys us more time to understand the virus; to potentially come up with more cure, or at least a way to reduce symptoms. So in many ways, if you look at the math, you're probably better off catching this later. The other challenging thing about this virus, though, is that group of symptoms or that percentage of people that will have symptoms, this is not a pleasant virus to catch or have symptoms for. You're going to have people who have mild symptoms, but catch secondary things like pneumonia, for sure; which if you've had pneumonia, it's not a lot of fun. You're gonna have people where you have reduced lung capacity for potentially years after the virus; that is included in the 10 to 15%. So one out of every 10 people will have lasting implications for the virus. So this is not something that you just didn't, you know, necessarily sit in bed with for a day or two and then get better. You're gonna have symptoms, if you do, it's not going to be super pleasant.

Ariana deVries

And the results can end up changing your lifestyle for an indeterminate amount of time?

Scott deVries

Correct. Yes. That can create a bit of fear. And again, that's okay, because we should that's a proper bodily response. We don't want to catch diseases that will hurt us, or the potential to hurt us. This is a great response of our brains to say, “No thanks”. Eventually, though many of us, if not all of us, will get it. And so it's all about buying time, both for hospitals and for potentially cures and other things to come down the pipe.

Ariana deVries

So I know that you've shared some of your frustrations with people who are not necessarily taking it seriously, especially in church and Christian circles, because those are the circles that we run in right now. They're some of the big ones that we are a part of, and they were some of the last ones to say, “This is a big deal. We're gonna close our doors”. Why do you think that is and how can we communicate the importance and impact this will have on our society and our communities, to people who may not be taking it as seriously as we hoped they would?

Scott deVries

In a crisis like this, nobody has too many answers, especially right off the bat. And many of us Christians are hoping and expecting that our leaders have the right things to say and the right. Just the right path forward. And I many ways feel bad for our Christian leaders, because some of this catches everybody off guard.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Scott deVries

How do you respond to this? The other question is it brings up theological issues. Very, very similar to close to 400 years ago, during the Black Plague, where theologians wrestled with how does this happen and why does God allow stuff like this? These are questions that didn't have easy answers back then and still don't. And so we're afraid of diving into topics that we haven't fully understood yet. And so of course, it makes sense that, why bother talking about this until there's no other choice. To me it's a little bit of a missed opportunity, though, for the church to lead out. Because the world is looking for answers and guidance in many ways. And that's throwing...fear is real, right? Fear is happening to people, and to tell people you just don't have to worry, doesn't actually cut it. So, for example, 400 years ago, when you have the Black Plague, when you have churches saying, “Take communion that will protect you from the Black Plague”,and other things like that; hat creates a situation where people have a generation of totally disregarding spirituality altogether. Because, obviously, those precautions, those type of things didn't work. And so, to me, the danger going forward and the frustration I have is that we try the same tactics that we did 400 years ago. We promise in any number of words that God is with us, and he's gonna protect us from this. And then we don't really know what we're saying. And there's generations of kids that just are like, what just happened? So that's my fear.

But there's hope here and there's such an opportunity. In many ways, this is almost a huge door where I was reading a quote in talking about actually talking about the Spanish Flu from 100 years ago, and one Christian writer was saying that we are one step away from Renaissance and from ruin. And I feel it very similarly today. So with the Christian Church, in many ways, this is a trial run for some of the more important issues coming up. This is an incredibly important issue at this moment. And will be for quite some time. But this is not the be all end all issue of all issues. There are tons of other stuff coming up. And this is essentially the church’s practice run at tackling these type of things. Are we willing to adjust our theology? Are we willing to expand what our view of love is, when love has traditionally looked like getting close in community and being person to person and gathering together and suddenly you turn everything on its head? And you say, we got to distance ourselves. We got to learn how to virtually connect with each other. These are things that we are not really practiced for, but all sudden this giant church experiment is starting and nobody's quite prepared for it.

Ariana deVries

Mm hmm. You say that there's lots of big things that can be a result of this. What do you see some of the big results being; like, for society, for our politics, for our economy? Like, you've been watching the news and reading articles and refreshing your feeds constantly for the last two days. So what do you see the future as after this?

Scott deVries

Now, there's two questions there. There's one of how does this affect our culture long term and the other is what's going to happen next?

Ariana deVries

Sure, answer them separately.

Scott deVries

What's gonna happen next, of course, take this with a grain of salt, I don't know for sure; the future is uncertain. However, looking at past pandemics and other situations, what you're going to see is total lockdown essentially, for at least a few weeks. This is going to reduce spread of the virus. Absolutely. In Canada, it's the right call. It's all about essentially reducing the amount of transmission so that our healthcare system can keep up. That's apparently number one at this point. The reality is, is that 70 to 80% of us are going to get the virus over the next probably year. That's just what's gonna happen. What's gonna happen is it's gonna happen in waves. So the first few weeks here, there's gonna be a bunch of people to get it then we're all going to start to feel a little bit invulnerable. We're going to start to loosen restrictions, people are going to wonder what the big deal was. There's going to be questions about did the government need to have this response people are gonna lose their jobs. Wonder what's happening. So then we're all going to try to return back to normal in a few weeks. And that's going to work for a short time and then the virus is going to come right back again. And we're gonna have to do this all over again. And we're probably going to do that probably three times by the end of the year. Okay. So that's what's going to happen, there's going to be some challenges as well. There's going to be some shortages of some products. However, there is nothing to fear on that front. There's not going to be whatever you've heard, there's not going to be crazy mass shortages, and we're not going to have to hoard and hide in our basements, that kind of stuff.

Ariana deVries

Grocery stores aren't going to be closed. You're not going to not have access to food.

Scott deVries

Correct. Absolutely. That kind of stuff is not on the table.

Ariana deVries

Well, because that's something that I have felt with this, in conflicting moments, of this is huge. But then also, this is not really anything big.

Scott deVries

Yeah, the big impacts that we're gonna see, especially in the next year, is that people we know will die. That is the reality of it. That's gonna be a challenge for people to walk through. It's gonna be a challenge for the church to process funerals when you can't get together for a funeral. How does that happen? It's going to be a challenge when you have other life events like weddings, and other things like that, that just can't seem to continue, at this point, the way we've been doing them. Which is a challenge. But again, life will continue. And in many ways, we'll start to loosen some social restrictions, people will start to get together in smaller groups, family connections will be a bit stronger on the main front, but there's going to be an unfortunate circumstance where the church actually can step in and you're going to see a mixture of responses. So some of us with more privileged situations, with better family connections, are going to be fine. But those without those things are going to struggle a bit more. And so for us as a church, it's important to think - now - about how we're going to help those in need; of the vulnerable people around us - whether it's moms with kids, single families, families that have issues. Imagine. Suddenly broken families having to live in the same home for weeks at a time. There's incredible challenges there. There's elderly people around us that take their lives in their hands when they go grocery shopping. So if there's potential ways of helping out these type of things are going to be reality. So you're gonna see this mixture, and I think this is the challenge for me too, is that we're gonna get lulled into a sense of security, but that's going to be because of our privilege. And so we'll have to be really careful to check that and to help others and essentially lay our security aside for the sake of others.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. And you've mentioned that a lot of our churches and places of worship, will see a change because of the lack of attendees and the lack of momentum. So how do you think that we can help support while not being actually physically present there? How can we still create that community of church and being together and creating that sort of loving environment without being actually in the same physical space as somebody?

Scott deVries

Yeah. To me, this is the continuation of the great church experiment where, you know, you have 20, 30 years ago the focus on larger and larger gatherings and more and more, spectacle maybe is the wrong word, but the draw for people is great music, great community connection all together. And to me, this is the reverse of that; where it’s the great experiment of church isolation. Where it’s one on one, and it's helping those close to us, whether physically or otherwise. This is gonna be a big challenge, if you're talking about decentralization of church structure really fast, globally at the same time, and there's going to be a lot of confusion. And one of the challenges for church leaders especially is that this is not just a, you're skipping church for a week situation, this is going to be on and off for quite a while. And so to expect that it's just Hey, we're just temporarily holding here and then we're going back to regular services. Surely, to me, that's the great missed opportunity here. There's danger. And there's a risk, of course in saying we are just going with a new model on a whim here. Absolutely. There's risk. But to me, that's the churches that end up embracing this early on are the ones that are gonna thrive the most, by the end of the year, for sure.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. And I feel like, well, this has been part of my thought process and struggle a little bit too, with the whole church and how do we navigate this with the topic of faith and believing for things and praying for things and especially in regards to health and healing and peace and all of that. How do you balance the trusting God and putting your faith in Him with the practical, down to earth means of protecting yourself and trusting doctors and knowing what the right thing to do is and taking in the information without it overwhelming you, but without just chalking it up to, well, it's just an attack of the enemy, or God will protect me? Both of those seem like not great places to stay. But those are the questions that I'm processing and I know that you have, too.

Scott deVries

I know I'm not the 100% best theologian on this topic.

Ariana deVries

I know. But that's some of the things that come up, especially when we're talking about a crisis.

Scott deVries

One of the things that I've enjoyed with my travels, especially with working with Bible Societies across the globe and my travels is, first of all, how ridiculous we sound as the West, especially the western church, where we come with our theology and we come with our big churches and our everything, just so. And in a situation like this, we just, we look a bit sheepish because it's all the answers that we're seeking. We left them there in the history books, they're in the places have poverty along around the world. And in a situation like this, it's kind of the great equalizer where it's like, oh, it's a, it's almost a humbling of what's hot, what we've done and how ill prepared we are for something like this. But the church throughout history has struggled and thrive in times of crisis. There's, I mean, there's innumerable crisises where people have struggled with? Where's God? What do we do? Where did this come from? And there are so many great questions and conversations that we can dive into. There will be a lot of people in our day and age, selling and preaching and talking about this, and it's not all bad. But to me, I'd rather find it from someone who lived it. And one of the one of the striking things is that a lot of the crisis of the church went through, didn't provide 100% the answers that everyone was looking for, but a lot of times they kick started a fairly new and innovative direction for the church. So you have after effects of different things. You have the Reformation happening, in some ways as a - not as a response - but they all start to tie together. And to me the same thing can happen today where we don't rush to find an answer, but we rush to uncover the questions and the experiences all over again.

Ariana deVries

Mm hmm. Yeah, that's a really good point. And I think that's something that we should remind ourselves of when we get in that place of fearing for the church is that the church has made it this far, and that we are made up of people. And we can support people through the crisis as a church, as a community, without fearing of collapse.

Scott deVries

Mm hmm.

Ariana deVries

Through all of your studying and research and learning and tracking with all of this pandemic crisis, what has been one of your greatest concerns? What is what is at the forefront of your mind? What would you like people to understand the most about this?

Scott deVries

First of all, I mean, that's real and but most people are trying to experience that now. And when you take away every single sport known to man, it hits us where it hurts in many ways in the West. The one thing that I've seen people say is in order to keep fear at bay, right, you have to trivialize what you're what's happening. So you say it's just the flu, or you say, it's not gonna affect me, or things like that. My encouragement is to find a good resource if you can, about what's really happening. I've seen people knock the news or organizations at this particular moment in time I find them to be actually rather insightful. I mean, it, of course, depends. But as a whole, what I'm seeing is that in a time of serious crisis like this, even news anchors, other people are being affected. And so it's, it's real to them as well. And they're wanting to get the word across. One of the challenges and one of the things I'd like people to know for sure is that our decisions affect those around us more than ever. So if you have people around you with any sort of medical condition, whether you elderly people, even people around you with smoking habits, or asthma, or whatever it may be, you're putting people at risk. If you're doing things like getting together in large groups or not washing your hands when you meet with people, etc.

Ariana deVries

I'm just trying to think now of what else you'd like to say; what other thought processes you want people to take away and implement into their lives.

Scott deVries

Hmm. There is something. We're gonna get through this. It’s gonna be fine. Either one of two things will happen. Three. One of three things will happen. There'll be a vaccine developed, which will probably be in the next 14 to 18 months, is my guess; which is actually quite a ways away. The other thing that will happen is that there'll be antiviral drugs that will be developed that will hamper the effects. The third option will be that it runs its course, we build up immunity as a whole, and then there'll be just a recurring virus that we all live with; a lot like the flu or others. But we'll get through this. The one thing I'd like people to know is that crisis, moments of crisis, are not over. In many ways, this is the trial run for crisis in the future. And so learning to live with crisis is so important. It's more important than trying to get through this. Because they're like, there are tons of other crisis is coming up, in many ways; environmental crisis, this is the training ground for this. Are we willing to step aside and give up our lifestyle and give up our selfish ideas of what life should look like, for the sake of those that are vulnerable and needy around us? And so that's what actually gives me the greatest hope at this moment is that when push comes to shove, it seems like we can do it.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. You even said that earlier today. You're saying that I think we're more capable of dealing with the, yeah, climate crisis than we think we are.

Scott deVries

Absolutely.

Ariana deVries

We're able to stop a lot of our lifestyle habits that we thought before we couldn't know.

Scott deVries

Even with the church, too. In many ways the church we act in a certain way, because it's the way it always has been. But in a situation like this, that the church can adapt, can adapt in times of crisis can thrive.

Ariana deVries

And that doesn't mean that you're somehow weak. Because you do that.

Scott deVries

That's right. Yeah. In many ways, it's it this is this is a blueprint for can the church lead out in terms of crisis can it say we're the first people on the lines to change what we're doing in order To love the people around us the most. But it's a hard bargain because it's you're saying, as a church, we're willing to give up what we have for someone who may never repay us. But isn't that kind of the core of Christianity in a nutshell to where we are giving up of what we have our security safety for the sake of another that we may or may not ever believe that's what Jesus in many ways did for us. And so of course, we should be doing it for others. So to me, it's this is this is the grand moment, at least in our lives in the annals of history. It's a minor blip, of course, but for us, this is a huge moment of how will we respond? How will we treat those around us? Why are we willing to give up personal safety, security, privacy, everything else? Give up our culture of getting in a car and doing whatever we want or traveling across the globe for pleasure, or we willing to give all this up for the sake of somebody that we may never come in contact with.

Ariana deVries

Right? And I like what you have been processing lately. It's a little bit of a different topic, but I feel like it fits here with the progression of love over time over the history, with it, being an ordered and organized love and moving to something that now is an empathetic, caring kind of love. And how we see can see people in a different way and put ourselves in their situation like, especially for wanting to protect people, if we are infected and thinking if I were in their situation, how would I want to be treated How would I want people to respond react to me and functioning out of that instead of what do I want for myself?

Scott deVries

Yeah, that's, that's the razor edge here. Were looking out for those around you sometimes actually has the benefit of looking out for yourself as well. But yes, you're right. It's this is a great opportunity to practice the changing form of love where us as a Western church have primarily focused on love being defined as a reduction of suffering. And now as the church moves into a new form of love, or a different form of love, which is empathy, allowing yourself to be with and changed by someone. This is a fantastic way to do that. We're being changed by In this case, people that we're not even in contact physically with, but we're being changed just by what they're going through. We may not be able to reduce suffering for them. In many ways, this virus is a piece of suffering that we will not be able to ultimately prevent. We can mitigate it as best we can. But there's going to be in many ways after this a huge way of processing with people sitting with them, grieving with them for what life they lost, grieving with them for the people that they've lost in their lives, the jobs, the other things like that. It's going to be a great way for the church to step in and say, Okay, we're not here to reduce suffering. We're here to sit with you in it, and allow ourselves as the church to be changed, whether it's experiences.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, and I think that is one of the big realizations that I have come to Through this is that I am now required to face suffering head on, and to sit with that, and to not be afraid of grief and to not be afraid of other people's grief, because I haven't had a lot of experiences with that. And I haven't necessarily been taught how to do that well. And so now that we may be going through this and having to do this with other people, makes it very real. And yeah, I feel like if the church and if I can be that support for people through this time of grief for whatever it may be Then that is learning to love people well and that will be the best way of being at the forefront of this is to support people through what happens after?

Scott deVries

Yeah, definitely. To sum up, we to face our fear head on and not overcome it but allow ourselves to live with it and use it to prompt us to then grieve and to think and to process and to wonder and to reflect. In when we do that, we we become changed. And then we are able to then help others do the same.

Ariana deVries

And process isn't bad.

Scott deVries

Process is not bad, in many ways. This moment of communal silence, in many ways, many of us will be locked at home is a great invitation to really reflect on what's happening, reflect our on our own fears, reflect our own way of living and wonder and grow from there.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. So as we're bringing this to a close, what are a couple of, first, practical things that we can do and then what are some final words of hope that you have for people who may have fear of what the future holds?

Scott deVries

And one thing I'd absolutely recommend is the next few weeks, draw a chart essentially a chart of all the people that you are going to be coming in contact with, and then just think about each one of them and essentially, figure out is it worth it? To have that connection at this point, physically, depending on their status, and it's up to you to decide that of course. But for example, we have elderly grandparents, other parents of people like that where eventually the risk is not worth it. And the rest goes both ways. And so at least having that prepared will help you in those awkward times where the relationship there's a difference there. So at least just writing that down and making that clear. The other thing I would do is definitely think about the people close to you physically. There are many seniors, elderly people in our society, people that live on their own.

And essentially, if we can look to adopt someone around us and just, again, this is a weird situation because it requires you to distance yourself physically from them for their own safety, but in many ways, they will need assistance, whether it's picking up groceries, or just checking on how they're doing mentally. or other things like that. And so if we can each take someone in our neighborhood, that's a fantastic way of preventing, but also then maintaining our neighborhood, which is fantastic. The other thing I would recommend if you're looking for more information on the topic, flattenthecurve.com is a fantastic resource at this point. It's written by a doctor, along with other input from a number of different countries as well. That's a great resource at this point.

Ariana deVries

And words of hope...

Scott deVries

Words of hope. I haven't had those for a while! I know the if we can walk through this as a faith community, and we can do this well. I have great hope for the next 20 to 30 years. 50 years. Absolutely. If we're able to understand that spirituality encompasses all forms in all areas of life, that our spirituality is how we do everything, how we decide our travel, how we take care of the environment around us how we treat physical virus symptoms, all this together if we realize that it's a church community, suddenly, the doors open for reaching the world. In many ways, we are then equipped to help and be the hands and feet that Jesus wanted us to be. So all signs point to. We're just getting started.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing some of your thoughts. I appreciate you opening up about that and letting people know what's going on in the world. Do you have further thoughts that you would like to share?

Scott deVries

No, that's about it. Again, encourage people as always, to do their own research to look up things. And to really process and embrace the fear, and then allow it to change and propel you forward.