Ariana deVries

Well, welcome everybody to the podcast today. For those of you who don't know our guest, her name is Kathy Hogarth, and she immigrated to Canada in 2002. She's an associate professor in the School of Social Work at Renison University College at the University of Waterloo. She's active in the community on several boards, and she's a wife and mother of two. So welcome, Kathy.

Kathy Hogarth

Thank you.

Ariana deVries

Yes, so today's topic is a big one. And it's something that's been coming up a lot lately, especially with the uprise of the Black Lives Matter movement and all of that, and we're going to be talking about church and racism.

So as we begin, I would really appreciate it if you could go into your professor teaching mode a little bit and briefly define some terms for us so that we can have a better understanding of some concepts that have been going around that maybe haven't been a part of our vocabulary up until recently - starting with a big one - systemic racism. Can you briefly explain that, if that is a possibility?

Kathy Hogarth

So you're right, systemic racism it's a big one. And if we parse those terms, system and racism, how is racism embedded in the systems that uphold society? And so we term it systemic racism, because we know that many of the systems that society is based on are racist.

Ariana deVries

Hmm. Yep.

Kathy Hogarth

So that is systemic racism. It is this understanding that the systems in which society is based on a fundamentally racist.

Ariana deVries

Right. And so then that would lead me to my next term that I would like defined and that is white supremacy or white privilege.

Kathy Hogarth

So white supremacy and white privilege are two very different things. White to be it, to have white privilege does not mean that you are a white supremacist.

Ariana deVries

Yep.

Kathy Hogarth

White supremacy is based on the notion that whiteness is better than any other race. So whiteness is supreme. And all other races, there for less than it is white. supremacy is based in this notion of domination and power. And it is very different from white privilege.

Ariana deVries

Hmm, yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

Not all white people are white supremists.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Kathy Hogarth

But all white people have white privilege.

Ariana deVries

Mm hmm.

Kathy Hogarth

Now what is white privilege? White privilege is simply an understanding that I was born white. This is who I am. And because I was born this way, it gives me certain privileges that I walk through my world with.

Ariana deVries

Mm hmm. Right. Okay.

Kathy Hogarth

It's not saying it is good or bad. It is simply stating a fact. I am born white and that whiteness. That fact of my birth gives me six privileges with which I can walk through the world.

Ariana deVries

Right. Yeah. And thank you for defining the differences between those because sometimes I think they can kind of get a little bit muddied together and people are like, "Wait, what? I don't feel like I'm a really bad person." But, yes.

Kathy Hogarth

And I think the term in itself. So when we confuse white privilege with white supremacy, that's hugely problematic, because I know many white people who are not supremists.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Kathy Hogarth

But also, the way white privilege is often used as it gets people's backs up because they immediately go to - privilege as something like riches, so wealth, all these things. And you can have white privilege and be economically underprivileged.

Ariana deVries

Yes.

Kathy Hogarth

So white privilege is not the same as economic privilege or educational privilege. It is not the same. It is simply because of the colour of my skin, I get to walk through my world in a different way. And it doesn't mean I have wealth. Although it is highly associated with wealth. It doesn't mean I am more educated, I have educational privilege. Although, we know that because you have white privilege, you are likely to walk into educational privilege differently. You are more likely to have other privileges because you have white privilege.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. That makes sense. Thank you for clarifying that, because I know a lot of people have brought that up when I've had conversation with them is not understanding the difference between white privilege and the other privileges that they may have or may not have because of it. Yeah. So then could you explain a little bit what allyship might be?

Kathy Hogarth

So I talk about allyship in terms of one who has privilege and uses it along side...So I talk about it in terms of where privilege and oppression meet on a journey for change.

Ariana deVries

Okay.

Kathy Hogarth

So that I have privilege. And I'm able to use my privilege, whatever that privilege is, I'm able to use my privilege to change the life outcomes of those who don't have the privilege that I have.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

So that I am walking alongside, not in front of not behind unless it requires me to walk in front of.

Ariana deVries

To protect.

Kathy Hogarth

To protect.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

Right. But I'm walking alongside the other who does not have the same privilege I have.

Ariana deVries

Mm hmm. I'm curious also about this, because I've been seeing some things saying that black folks especially don't need our allyship. And I'd like to hear what you think about that, too. Because, I guess, like a lot of things that can be taken the wrong way and can be used as more of an upping of our own status as white people, but yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

So the notion of allyship is problematic because for many of us, when we we take on allyship...I say it's like putting on a pair of pants.

Ariana deVries

Okay.

Kathy Hogarth

I get to take it off when it's convenient. So there's this convenience and allyship.

Ariana deVries

Got it. Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

That I get to use it when it suits me. And that's the problematic nature of allyship and why for many who are in positions of oppression who are facing the brunt of discrimination. They say there is no true allyship because you get to use it when it's convenient to you and you get to take it off. When it's inconvenient to you. You get to stand up and protect me as a black woman when it's convenient to you.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Kathy Hogarth

I don't have as a black woman those same privileges of taking it off. I am what I am.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Kathy Hogarth

So there are these limitations to allyship, and allyship becomes problematic when we use it as dressing, as a facade, as makeup, if you would. Something you can put on and take off.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

That's the problematic nature of allyship. And that's what leads many to question. "Do we really need that?"

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

Do I really need the convenient ally? And when it becomes inconvenient, you run away?

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

Because that's often how allyship gets played out, and what we've seen lately in all of this movement of Black Lives Matter, what we've seen is a lot of white folk coming out in support of the movement in support of change.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

Then we also see a lot of the same white folk. They've now reached the point of are, "Are we done yet?"

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Right.

Kathy Hogarth

Right? So that you can become exhausted and bow out.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

That's the limit of allyship. Because for those of us who live in bodies of difference, we don't get to bow out.

Ariana deVries

Mm hmm.

Kathy Hogarth

That's not an option for us. So understand that allyship - as great a term as it is, as nice a concept as it is - It's also a feel good concept.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

Right.

Ariana deVries

Yes.

Kathy Hogarth

It's a feel good, and when it doesn't feel good anymore we stop.

Ariana deVries

Hmm. Yeah, and that...

Kathy Hogarth

And for those who live on the opposite end of that, of course, there's the question of, "Do I really need that? Do I need to massage your ego? So that you can feel good?"

Ariana deVries

Yeah, exactly.

Kathy Hogarth

And then when it no longer feels good to you, you walk away. Well, that's sick.

Ariana deVries

No kidding. Oh, my goodness. Well, and that's part of the reason why -as the Active Listening podcast - I have wanted to take the time to figure out what some of these things mean, to figure out what some of these things mean to me as a white female, and to figure out, what is my place here? And what is required of me? And is allyship something that I need to be doing? Or is it something that I can continue doing? And how am I going to continue to be there for you and to lift these voices and have these conversations and not just have it be a one time thing? That has been...oh, that's been a big conversation within myself. And I'm very excited to talk more with you about this.

Kathy Hogarth

So here's what I say about allyship and these terms. Let's forget the terms.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

Let's just talk about being a good human.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

Right?

Ariana deVries

Yes.

Kathy Hogarth

When we talk when we look at what needed in this world. It's about humanity.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Kathy Hogarth

Our collective humanity. So that when you stand up for against injustice, you're not standing up for me as the black woman. You're standing up for our collective humanity. You don't need accolades for that. You don't need a title for that. It's called being a good human.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

And so let's get to the job of actually being human.

Ariana deVries

Yep.

Kathy Hogarth

And forget the accolades that go along with the titles of things like allyship. Let's see our responsibility of being human as more important. And so, when you stand up in the face of injustice, when you fight for the needs the rights of another, you are fighting for your own. Because this is about your humanity in as much as it is about my humanity.

Because what does racism actually tell us? Racism questions, two things. Questions the humanity of the one who is oppressed, and a questions the humanity of the one who is oppressing.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, that's good. Wow. And I guess that's what love is right is to be human and to see the humanity of others and to care and to act out of that love for others.

Kathy Hogarth

The best way we can think of love...love is a term I love and I hate. Because I think within our Christian world we can misuse this term called Love and perpetrated the worst kind of hate.

Ariana deVries

Oh man. Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

In the name of love. And I say the love of God is best expressed in our service to humanity. That's how Christ, that's how God expressed his love; in his service to humanity. When we think about love, love is not this nefarious, this nebulous, this airy fairy thing, this feeling in my heart. Love is an expression through our actions, through our every day.

Ariana deVries

Mm hmm.

Kathy Hogarth

How can I say I love the other person yet witness violence against them and do nothing. What kind of love allows me to witness violence? Because racism is violence. So what kind of love allows me to witness violence and walk away and silent and do nothing and be apathetic and be indifferent? That's not love.

But we also have a very skewed understanding of love at times; the love that's often informed by our Christianity.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

So we have to challenge ourselves on that. It requires us to critically reflect on ourselves. Um, as to... "What am I really doing? How can I say I love my brother? How can I say I love my sister and stand and witness this?" Because what we are doing every day is witnessing. We are witnessing violence. We may choose to close our eyes.

Ariana deVries

Hmm, yep. And that is something that I have been purposely choosing to do is open my eyes to this, to witness it. And to have it evoke an emotion within me so that I can then look at love as not something that is about me and my individuality.

Kathy Hogarth

Mm hmm.

Ariana deVries

Because as...according to the love that I see in the Bible, that isn't what it's about.

Kathy Hogarth

It certainly isn't about that.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Ah. Thank you for clarifying that a little bit. And to help me understand and to help the listeners understand that a little bit more. Yeah. Wow. Okay.

I would like to switch a little bit and go into a little bit of your story into here a little bit of your background and experience growing up. Growing up, did you have an experience of church and what was that like and how did that affect your understanding of the world?

Kathy Hogarth

I grew up as a pastor's kid.

Ariana deVries

Okay.

Kathy Hogarth

So I grew up in a Christian family. But Christianity for me was community. Christianity for me was born out...Church for me was every day because it was in home, it wasn't in a building called church. But it was how life was lived more than it was a Sunday morning thing. So my dad being both a pastor and a labourer, because he worked in a factory. He worked in a factory, sometimes by day, sometimes by night. And then the rest of his time he was actually living, well, even while in the factory, he was living church.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

And so our home was always a place of community. Our life was a life of community. And so for me, church really bore great significance. And it really wasn't about I go to church on Sundays. Right? It really was about I live church. Every day. My dad was an activist; still is. He's in his 80s. And he's still living in this life of change. How do we reconcile the world.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

Right. And that that reconciling didn't necessarily happen in a building called church. It happened wherever we were.

Ariana deVries

Mm hmm.

Kathy Hogarth

So that, to me is how I grew up. That for me was the, the very foundational years of my my Christianity. And that, to me is now how I live my life. It seems a bit foreign in some regards to come into a system where church is a building.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

And where it feels so devoid of community. So you go to church on a Sunday, and the only time those people are involved in your lives is on a Sunday, maybe for the 10 or 15 minutes when you're in the foyer.

Ariana deVries

Right. Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

And that feels very foreign to me, but I've come to know that as Canadian church, yeah.

Ariana deVries

Which isn't wonderful. I have also been on a journey of...because I'm purely Canadian, and I don't love that church is just like that either. I am really curious, though, and I don't want this to be an assumption as to your upbringing. But well, I'm just curious, because I'm wondering if, like your culture of growing up just in being in a different country also affected the way that you saw church as community as opposed to how North Americans view church.

Kathy Hogarth

Um, I think it may have an impact and you know what, when I associated with people from different cultures with there is a language around core cultures and warm cultures, and folks in warm cultures do church differently than folks in cold cultures, and Canada is a cold culture.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

But it's also this idea of the individual versus the community. So where I grew up, and I have traveled immensely. I've traveled a lot around the world. And in my travels and where I grew up; I have lived for over a decade...Well, I've lived in three different countries for more than a decade at a time.

Ariana deVries

Wow. Okay.

Kathy Hogarth

Okay. And so, what I've been able to experience to experience in in these various places, the significant difference in how we do community. In the Caribbean, a lot of our lives is lived in community. So for instance, I don't need to call my friend to say, "Hey, I'm coming over". I just show up.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

And I'm welcomed in. I grew up in a family and a lot of people within those cultures will tell you, you never just cook for your family, because anybody may show up.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, that's right.

Kathy Hogarth

So you always have extra food, because anybody may show up. And then you walk into a culture like the one we are currently in where you have to make sure you call before you come. Because if you just show up, I may not answer my door, right?

Ariana deVries

It's all very proper and polite.

Kathy Hogarth

Right? And so there is that This strong boundary between individuals here. Whereas those boundaries between individuals and families...we understand... when I grew up, I was raised by my parents, of course they have responsibility, but I did not get out of hand in community, because my community members will equally discipline me.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

Right. That's an expectation of community that they share in the responsibility of, in some ways, of raising good kids. Right?

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

That's not the same experience I've had here. Here, every man's to himself. You do your thing here. We won't get involved, kind of thing. And the ways that we get involved then would be, "Oh, I need to call Child Welfare on you cuz you're not raising your kids well." Well, that's not the culture I come from.

So, there are stark differences that are cultural. And yes, absolutely that informs then how we do church.

Ariana deVries

So then when you immigrated to Canada, why did you choose to attend a church that is made up mostly of white people?

Kathy Hogarth

I don't know that there are many other options. Canada is white. [Laughter]

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

I actually did some "church shopping" - air quotes - church shopping when I came to Canada. And I landed where I landed because at the time, a friend of mine from church in Jamaica...so I lived for 10 years in Jamaica before I moved to Canada.

Ariana deVries

Ah, okay.

Kathy Hogarth

A friend of mine from our church there said, "Hey, you should visit this church." She left shortly after. I think maybe she was there one Sunday while I was there.

Ariana deVries

Oh, yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

And the idea of church shopping for me is new. It's not something I'm very comfortable with. So we stayed. And what 15, 17, how many years later we are still there?

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

It's not been our ideal. We said we were staying for our kids, because we ended up having kids. Our kids are now at the age where they themselves feel very excluded in that space. So it's not been ideal. But we are also people of commitment. And it's not that you stay in a bad relationship. Right?

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

Because you're committed to it. But we stay and we try to build for the future we want. Recognizing that the present isn't necessarily ideal, but we are building for the future we want.

Ariana deVries

Yes, I'm totally with you on that one. And I feel very similarly because there's been...I mean, I've been at the same church my entire life, 30 years. And in the last 10 years there have been a lot of questions and soul searching, and I have been unsure about a lot of things. I'm there to love on people, and like you said, to help bring forth change that I'd like to see.

I am so grateful that you are still there and that you are taking the time and putting in the effort and doing the hard work of helping to bring about change, and to have hard conversations when there haven't been these conversations before. Like, you were on a panel, and wow. That conversation blew my mind. And it was amazing that we were sitting down to have this conversation about race and humanity and thank you for doing that. That is wonderful that you are doing that. But it is hard work I'm sure.

Kathy Hogarth

It is hard work and the reality is systems like churches will only change to the degree that they are open to change.

Ariana deVries

Right.

Kathy Hogarth

I grew up with this the saying that God is a gentleman. If we had to reduce God to manly status. But he won't push into where he's not invited. And, okay, I'm not sure I buy all of that. But I say that to say this.

We will only change to the extent that we want to, that we are open to change. We will invite people into spaces only to the extent that we are comfortable. And I've been at this church since 2004. So the last 16 years. And it's not that we haven't tried. We've been trying for 16 years.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. I can imagine.

Kathy Hogarth

We've been asking for these conversations for as long as we've been there. That the conversations are now happening, it's great. It's great that they are now happening. But it's frustrating that they are now happening.

Ariana deVries

Right. And it's been how many years of it being in existence that it hasn't happened.

Kathy Hogarth

Right.

Ariana deVries

Which...That makes me think of the word tokenism a little bit. This is a big issue right now. We'll bring in somebody who is black so that we can talk about this. And how is that actually, I guess kind of the same as allyship, but harmful to the work of antiracism within our places of worship, and how can we balance that?

Kathy Hogarth

So here's what I say about tokenism. I don't mind being your token. [Laughter] I don't mind being your token if you use me as a doorstop; as an opening to allow others into that space.

Ariana deVries

Ah, yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

So tokenism is a bad thing.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

So how do I reclaim it? This is my reclaiming of it. If you use me as the token to keep that door open, I'm happy being your little token. What we've seen in our church and we've seen it in many churches across North America, we've seen a number of racialized folks come in and they leave. They come in and they leave. Because they've recognized the place as unwelcoming to them. They've recognized the place as unable to serve their needs.

We go to church, yes, to build, but we also go to church because we have needs.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

And if the church isn't equipped to meet those needs, and many of our churches are white, predominantly white churches, and neither equipped nor want to be equipped to meet those needs. And so, I think one is a failure to first acknowledge how Christianity is tied in some of the ways it manifests how it's tied to this notion of whiteness.

When, for instance, all of the worship songs in a church - the only songs we worship with - are white bands, white musicians. What is it saying to the folks who are not white and who are from other countries? Are we saying that their worship isn't good enough? Can't stand your test? What are we seeing? What message are we sending?

And so even at that very basic level, and for me as an educator, this is something I challenge my colleagues about. Because, yes, I work at an institution, I work in a department that's predominantly white, I'm the only black faculty member in my department. I teach students who are 90 to 95% white.

Yet, what I do know is that those students are going out to serve a world that looks different than they do. It's the same with a church. We are going out to serve a world that looks different than we do. So how do we educate? This is the question I ask of my colleagues. How do we educate our students to serve a world that's different from them? If all we are giving them to read is what the white man said?

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

If we can see ourselves reflected in what's up there then I'm sorry. Maybe this church isn't for me.

Ariana deVries

Mm hmm.

Kathy Hogarth

Right? We've made Jesus white.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. Oh, it's so true.

Kathy Hogarth

We made Jesus white. And that is hugely problematic.

Ariana deVries

Yep. So how do you think that we can kind of break that cycle, so to speak? Because in my experience, I've been on the worship team at the church, and I'm one of the people that was on the stage as the face of what church is as a white person, and how do we have more diversity without it being a..."Well we have you here so that people of colour or people of different cultures see you and then want to come so we can sing your music." How does it not just become like a business transaction?

Kathy Hogarth

I say, let's go for love in action. Right?

Ariana deVries

It comes back to love.

Kathy Hogarth

Yes. Let's learn to love like Christ loved. Let's look at Christ as an example. Not a white Christ.

Ariana deVries

Yes.

Kathy Hogarth

Let's ask ourselves some hard questions about the Christ of the Bible. You know, one of the things I constantly go back to is he ate with sinners. [Laughter] He had friends who were sinners. He got into the trenches with folks. He got into the trenches. Right? One of his disciples was Judas. One of his disciples, one of the men closest to him was Judas.

What does that tell us about Christ? One of the things that it certainly tells us about him is that he wasn't afraid of difference. He wasn't afraid of the people who were different from him.

Ariana deVries

Mm hmm.

Kathy Hogarth

What I find often, and why racism is so prevalent and insidious and what drives racism? What drives racism in our society, what drives racism in our churches? It's fear. We are afraid of the things that look different.

Ariana deVries

Mm hmm.

Kathy Hogarth

We are afraid of the Muslim other. We are afraid of the Black other. We have bought lies as a church. We’ve bought into these lies. Because as a church we are not living in some bubble outside of society. We are part of a culture. And our culture has sold us these lies.

And so one of these things I say often is we need to change our proximity to the thing we fear most. We need to change when we look at our churches. Just do a scan and ask yourself as you look at the foyer on a Sunday morning, in between services, who’s with whom? What do we see? We see our white groups over there. We see our black groups over there. And we see our Latino groups over there.

Ariana deVries

Mhmm. It’s true.

Kathy Hogarth

How do we break those cycles? How do we welcome people, truly welcome them, into our spaces. We have the narrative that runs at our church about things like, “Well if you want friends you have to be friendly." I’m sorry. I don’t buy that. While it sounds true, there is a whole lot that goes on beyond friendliness.

Ariana deVries

Oh yes.

Kathy Hogarth

So I think we have to ask ourselves, "How would christ love?" Because honestly, I don’t think I get it.

Ariana deVries

Mmm. Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

I’ve been doing life for 16 years at my church, and I don’t think I get it.

Ariana deVries

Yep, I agree. So what would loving someone, in practical terms, look like for you?

Kathy Hogarth

First, in order to love someone you have to get to know them. Again, you have to change your proximity to them. You can’t love from a distance.

Ariana deVries

Right, because then it’s just empty words.

Kathy Hogarth

Exactly.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. I know in my journey of learning through this and in so many things happening right now with COVID and the Black Lives Matter movement, I’m learning how love looks to people who are not like me. And it’s really uncomfortable sometimes! And I’m having to learn to sit with discomfort because I don’t like to be uncomfortable. It’s something that is a part of my personality and I struggle with it hugely. And I’m making myself be uncomfortable on purpose, because I want to know more about what it means to love and have empathy for other people.

Kathy Hogarth

So that’s the second step. First is change your proximity. Second is sit with discomfort. This is going to rub us wrong. Because maybe our families of origin have told us stories about those people over there. Maybe it’s the media that has cemented these stories in our minds about those people over there. Maybe it’s some of the teachings we’ve had in our schooling that’s cemented these ideas about these people over there. Maybe there’s something we can’t touch within ourselves, that we can’t identify within ourselves. All we know is that i’s uncomfortable.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

And sometimes we need to sit with that discomfort. So, change our proximity and sit with the discomfort. What we realize after time of changing proximity, sitting with discomfort, the thing that was originally uncomfortable becomes comfortable.

Here’s the other thing. So we’ve sat with our discomfort. We have changed our proximity. Now, let’s do the messiness. Relationship is messy.

Ariana deVries

Yep.

Kathy Hogarth

What we often do, particularly as it pertains to race, we feel that we can’t make mistakes. “What if I say the wrong thing?” This is relationship. This is life and we’re not always going to get it right.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

So now we have sat with discomfort, we are living with that discomfort, let’s get messy. And do relationship together.

Ariana deVries

And get a little bit angry sometimes.

Kathy Hogarth

Absolutely!

Ariana deVries

Because that’s something that I’m starting to understand, too; being brought up in a Christian family and the church, anger wasn’t really an option. To be righteously indignant about something was more ok, but I’m learning now that, yeah. I’m going to get angry about something and I’m going to talk to my family about it. And it may not have the result that I absolutely am expecting, but because we are in relationship and I love you, we will talk about this.

Kathy Hogarth

That’s right. And for me, I talk about it in this way. It’s like you are coming to the table for dinner, and I’m too angry to get there. The rest of my family can have dinner. But leave the empty seat so that when I get there, I get there. So the seat is always there at the table.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

Right? And so I think…Sunday I was speaking at another church on this very topic, and on of the questions was really about “So how do I…or why am I not angry?”

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

“Why am I not angry? Or why am I only now angry?” So when we begin to understand racism in our society. Racism didn’t begin with George Floyd, okay?

Ariana deVries

Yeah, right.

Kathy Hogarth

George Floyd was a public murder at the hands of white policemen. A public murder witnessed around the world. But we’ve had 450 years of slavery. We’ve had 200 years of anti-indigenous or Indigenous elimination. We’ve had decades of segregation, legal segregation in Canada. Did any of those things make us angry? If not, why not? Why are we now angry? And if we are not angry, why are we not angry. Anger is absolutely a valid response. So I say, in the midst of this, if I”m not angry, if you’re not angry, ask yourself, “How is it that I can see this and not let it move me?”

Ariana deVries

Mhmm.

Kathy Hogarth

“What work does God need to do in me so that I can be touched by the brutality that others must endure? What does he need to do with my heart so that I can become, so that my heart can be softened to the love of God expressed in the love of others?” Because to watch brutality in the face and not be touched, to me, suggests a type of callousness of heart that needs to be worked on.

Ariana deVries

And, to love others, doesn’t necessarily mean that every single person needs to be an activist for justice, right?

Kathy Hogarth

No, I disagree. We all need to be activists for justice, but what it means is we won’t all be activists in the same way.

Ariana deVries

Ah, that’s a good clarification, yep. Because we’re all different people.

Kathy Hogarth

That’s right. Justice is not an option.

Ariana deVries

Yep.

Kathy Hogarth

That’s the responsibility. That’s a requirement. Right? It’s not optional. How we do justice, how we are activists for justice that differs.

Ariana deVries

And it would be, I feel like it would be, a discovery of who you are and what moves you and how it moves you to action in a sustainable way that you can keep doing so that I doesn’t become an ego boost or something like that.

Kathy Hogarth

And so I might be the person out there. I’ve got the gift of gab.

Ariana deVries

[Laughter] Yeah. I don’t have the gift of gab quite as much, so I learn other ways.

Kathy Hogarth

Exactly! So what is your way? And this is where I say…Earlier you asked the question, Black people are saying we don’t need white allies? So what can I do as a white person?

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

This is where I say, “What can I do as a person?”

Ariana deVries

Right.

Kathy Hogarth

We all have a role to play, and your role is not mine. We are all positioned differently. And so I say, start with where you’re positioned. Start with what’s in your hand. You may be an artist, I am not.

Ariana deVries

Yep.

Kathy Hogarth

So how can I use my art to create change? You might be a singer. How can I use my songs to create change?

Ariana deVries

Yep.

Kathy Hogarth

You might be a professor, a teacher. How can I use my teaching to create change? We start with where we are at and what’s in our hands. Often times the problem for many is we think change must only look like one thing, and we can’t see ourselves in that.

Ariana deVries

Mhmm.

Kathy Hogarth

I challenge everyone, see yourself in it. If you think you’re too small, too insignificant to make change, try spending a night in a room with a mosquito.

Ariana deVries

[Laughter] That’s a good one. Yes.

Kathy Hogarth

We all have a responsibility to change the world we live in.

Ariana deVries

Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

We don’t get a free pass on that. But your way of changing may look very different from mine. We need your different way to work with my different way to create the change we want to see.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. So as we bring this to a close, I have one final question, and you’ve kind of answered this already. How can we as a faith community come alongside and support our Black and Indigenous brothers and sisters and help to lift you up and amplify your voices and use our privilege for good.

Kathy Hogarth

I think first as a church we have to acknowledge that we too as a church are complicate. We have played a part and continue to play a part in the ills of society. We have to acknowledge, we have to reckon with that. Our silence as a church is violence. We cannot take the position that we don’t get political. Race, racism is political. One of the things we need to understand is my Black body, the Indigenous body, the gay body, the Asian body, they are all made in the image of God. They are image bearers. If they are image bearers, attacks - and let’s understand racism as violence - if my body is an image bearer of the most high God, then racist violence again my body is violence against God; the very image of God.

Ariana deVries

Wow. Yeah.

Kathy Hogarth

We cannot delink it. Once we begin to understand that as a church, maybe then we will lift our voice and cry out. Where is the collective crying out of the church fo this nation?

Ariana deVries

Mhmm.

Kathy Hogarth

The church is one of the largest institutions in society. One of the largest institutions in society. There are probably more churches in every community that there are schools.

Ariana deVries

Yeah, it’s crazy.

Kathy Hogarth

How do we use what we have, the tools we have, our position in our sphere of influence, to change our society. The church has a role, and the church has remained largely silent. There is no collective outcry.

Ariana deVries

Yeah. I guess now it’s time for us to raise our voices a little.

Kathy Hogarth

Just a little.

Ariana deVries

Or maybe we can post a podcast to the internet. [Laughter]

Well, thank you so much, Kathy.

Kathy Hogarth

Yeah. You’re welcome.

Ariana deVries

I’m so glad that you took the time to site with me and have this conversation on Church and Race and to help bring some understanding and some clarity; to have an open an honest conversation with me. Thank you so much.

Kathy Hogarth

I hope it helped.